Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jM5tj-000391-Fh for pgadmin-support@arkaria.postgresql.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 08:17:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jM5th-0003lz-Vx for pgadmin-support@arkaria.postgresql.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 08:17:21 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jM5th-0003ku-8I for pgadmin-support@lists.postgresql.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 08:17:21 +0000 Received: from mail-ed1-x543.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::543]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jM5tZ-0005Lw-S7 for pgadmin-support@postgresql.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 08:17:20 +0000 Received: by mail-ed1-x543.google.com with SMTP id de14so7471812edb.4 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 01:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pgadmin.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qARPMXv9Bt3jENpDeOwDcEmZqOU8Iw13FYjEbeVoPOI=; b=OtPsYK2tN4/ltnBJ4Z/OOh52ZEtoxLccfaenvW4cUZfFYNA6nDAqncxRdrL5aIdAD1 yFuQC02dFrnbu0zCYdgXSfvnUTgL8UjzP+1ZV6kRkuA4AaQ15S2jkpbpFzDJJDPTrzRa 94Nrm5u0A5YuGd4r4hHq4ggfTvKR+w9yvcNopgUdbuMPmQDqzgQeuEwrDFkc2z3ZfhRT YZwprz83WBoYMPsV0Ewh7vFPLIqFwQx0i4Bpucr14c0tEqgJX2k+xhvqK3Rk9wTphzlt 3ISWgbo360vr0kHAahPtC3I6//JDxDXXn6gDjGL8c7rgbZk2EGLhpvBu7BIpCrg0svgC JRfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qARPMXv9Bt3jENpDeOwDcEmZqOU8Iw13FYjEbeVoPOI=; b=YXM241nA1bxy5Q/3Cr8mQ5fBQBpZIjcMX2O5eEMbGJj5TsUD0XTHqXIpEQy6ZjaPrO +tGBnCYP2+L8k3L3Gihy/GVmlzrmwbdCgQVQh2ZzRytC3DtRLy69yrg4hP3Mh/R9jPwh TwKUBzPQpachSixKWdqGl5L2ALqZeCHAXGOptiiK3k5GiEwx8qLZp52llaI2edCYc5UC EhZONQYA7c3zh0PT0sCqf5ePchWnqHnCUU4EX7Fi0+IWa9+9Fnr963OccjGWsNh6El5I zI9j0uZctnHHAYyt80hICaT6vKkuwfmN8yA6wubrJJvH+AcIfoN+fgB4jcqJRPjfUK0q 5gvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubJtDpmQK0V+738O1jZnsf5OXD1Gt7Uwv0IBKXlcLKxKHjoPlrw ab9Ya4HNFLZcuPMmaO2It8V01SD0Cfgy0pQ+YpLncg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIm8c+XEkWqrCGZK/c+w0k9ZT6hNuQVcXD2ChzH2TawdwWbF+ByTg32NrqVpHCUPpvJzBORRt3sII1HQ2nSpmk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:15d4:: with SMTP id l20mr5482150ejd.91.1586333832018; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 01:17:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Page Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:17:00 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposal: Drop support for Internet Explorer To: richard coleman Cc: Dave Caughey , pgAdmin Support , pgadmin-hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008da0b305a2c320f1" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --0000000000008da0b305a2c320f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 1:34 PM richard coleman wrote: > Dave, > > Seeing that IE isn't standards compliant and not only is not being further > developed, but Microsoft is actively discouraging its use, it is probably > time to drop support for it. > > I would caution *against* using browser analytics as any sort of proxy for > use. Since pgAdmin 4 lacks a UI of its own, I rely on an instance of > Chromium (or Vivalidi, or Firefox, depending on the machine) to run pgAdmin > under. In every case, the browser that I am *running* pgAdmin 4 under is > *not* the same browser that I use to browse websites, and so would never > show up in your analytics. > Understood. Analytics are just one source of information, and certainly not conclusive as you point out. My suspicion is that your situation is not the norm for most people, but that really is just a suspicion. > > Just something to keep in mind, > > rik. > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:00 AM Dave Page wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Dave Caughey wrote: >> >>> Check the analytics... I think you'll find dropping it is a non-issue. >>> In my own web service, I found that IE (all versions) constituted only >>> about 1% of my users. >>> >> >> Good point - 1.9% of the visitors to the website were on IE this week. >> 1.8 of those were on IE11. We even had one hit from IE5... >> >> By comparison, 72% of users were on Chrome, 13% on Firefox, with 5.5% >> each for Safari and Edge. >> >> >>> >>> So I dropped support for IE (since it was preventing me from fully >>> adopting ES6), and there was not a single complaint from my users. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Dave >>> >>> On Tue., Apr. 7, 2020, 3:36 a.m. Dave Page, wrote: >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Internet Explorer has long been superseded by Microsoft Edge, and even >>>> that has recently moved to using Chromium as it's core engine. Version 11 >>>> was originally released in 2013, and though Microsoft have committed to >>>> supporting it until 2025, as far as I can tell there have been no notable >>>> new features in almost it's entire lifetime, and certainly in recent years >>>> Microsoft have only been releasing security fixes. >>>> >>>> As you can imagine, supporting Internet Explorer has a non-trivial cost >>>> to it for the pgAdmin project. Not only do we need to test with it as well >>>> as Edge, but we also need to write code, CSS and HTML that is fully >>>> compatible with what essentially is a 7 year old browser. By comparison, >>>> for all other browsers we typically aim to support releases no more than 2 >>>> years old. >>>> >>>> I therefore propose that we officially drop support for Internet >>>> Explorer. Practically this means that we would not test with it, and anyone >>>> reporting a bug with it would be told to use an alternate browser. >>>> >>>> Objections/comments please? >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave Page >>>> Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com >>>> Twitter: @pgsnake >>>> >>>> EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com >>>> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Dave Page >> Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com >> Twitter: @pgsnake >> >> EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com >> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company >> > -- Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company --0000000000008da0b305a2c320f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 1:34 PM richar= d coleman <rcoleman.ascen= tgl@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave,=C2=A0

Seeing that IE= isn't standards compliant and not only is not being further developed,= but Microsoft is actively discouraging its use, it is probably time to dro= p support for it.

I would caution *against* using = browser analytics as any sort of proxy for use.=C2=A0 Since pgAdmin 4 lacks= =C2=A0a UI of its own, I rely on an instance of Chromium (or Vivalidi, or F= irefox, depending on the machine) to run pgAdmin under.=C2=A0 In every case= , the browser that I am *running* pgAdmin 4 under is *not* the same browser= that I use to browse websites, and so would never show up in your analytic= s.

Understood. Analytics are ju= st one source of information, and certainly not conclusive as you point out= . My suspicion is that your situation is not the norm for most people, but = that really is just a suspicion.
=C2=A0

Just som= ething to keep in mind,=C2=A0

rik.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:00 AM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Dave Caughey <caugheyd@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
Check the analytics... I think you'll find dropping it is a non-issu= e. In my own web service, I found that IE (all versions) constituted only a= bout 1% of my users.=C2=A0

Good= point - 1.9% of the visitors to the website were on IE this week. 1.8 of t= hose were on IE11. We even had one hit from IE5...

By comparison, 72% of users were on Chrome, 13% on Firefox, with 5.5% each= for Safari and Edge.
=C2=A0

So I dropped support for IE (since it was preventing me from full= y adopting ES6), and there was not a single complaint from my users.=C2=A0<= /div>

Cheers,=C2=A0
Dave

On Tue., Apr. 7, 2020, 3:36 a.m. Dave Page, &= lt;dpage@pgadmin.org= > wrote:
=
All,

Internet Explorer has long been su= perseded=C2=A0by Microsoft Edge, and even that has recently moved to using = Chromium as it's core engine. Version 11 was originally released in 201= 3, and though Microsoft have committed to supporting it until 2025, as far = as I can tell there have been no notable new features in almost it's en= tire lifetime, and certainly in recent years Microsoft have only been relea= sing=C2=A0security fixes.

As you can imagine, supp= orting Internet Explorer has a non-trivial cost to it for the pgAdmin proje= ct. Not only do we need to test with it as well as Edge, but we also need t= o write code, CSS and HTML that is fully compatible with what essentially i= s a 7 year old browser. By comparison, for all other=C2=A0browsers we typic= ally aim to support releases no more than 2 years old.

=
I therefore propose that we officially drop support for Internet Explo= rer. Practically this means that we would not test with it, and anyone repo= rting a bug with it would be told to use an alternate browser.
Objections/comments please?

Thanks!

--
Dave Page
Blog: <= a href=3D"http://pgsnake.blogspot.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"= >http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB U= K: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB= UK: http://www.e= nterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @p= gsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL = Company
--0000000000008da0b305a2c320f1--