Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jLnQq-0006na-8Q for pgadmin-hackers@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:34:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jLnQp-00079a-4E for pgadmin-hackers@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:34:19 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jLnQo-00079T-OP for pgadmin-hackers@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:34:18 +0000 Received: from mail-lj1-x243.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::243]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jLnQm-0003r3-38 for pgadmin-hackers@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:34:17 +0000 Received: by mail-lj1-x243.google.com with SMTP id f20so3552966ljm.0 for ; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 05:34:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=juTjnOrjWr+m1xmZkBlWsAS8eOwzSTBU/NCAlvncMpI=; b=PV1bmsHYkxCZS1eijpb8sCeDKCRLLCoAfC2epvh/PWn9fhfwKQRed5xKjK//2SbcBF TZGj1lPzNKS+O3Rzask1s+X4JKossLEr13n7cYsftL7vQYgwIp7aJuAkJlyw2N7gZ3I8 rfgUm/sy6bISWdHM05ftS/Db4TaN4qiEkDiiyIoCtjNUqEFZ8BMibFJv0ti3SM6bTDXs hKDDqQabgmEusMZfcQoNx5MT7PbO0+QLUWrk/TaHVWJa5ajqixIrP5Q8HuxnMKRVvXYB 9728yGc+pThz4RJrvkv/3v9hJIG6kK/fA/bGY2J/PPHNjGbadQHjLJ/Gc0QBkkYjiigH QSXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=juTjnOrjWr+m1xmZkBlWsAS8eOwzSTBU/NCAlvncMpI=; b=cwfb7TTKM8mEHnrmXuloaU9oRgHvMOXOg+s9nP7Yze2MGwMA2HxYhhqAGczoqOq61j aEuqZuNBBiGhhA2tUPKyEPhOplO+a0hiVBYeIa960ygzSIbWa2TU2ySEisi1qJtO7KeT 4/O9GafE8MN/zDBXSJh4wqyrXAqERjGk6CAkRyPfL/J4+6j3D7ef/IRhJSn7Q3ADPGrA Y1+WTgFQs0GefaiP1LXE6WxpqXUo3qGQt57rK44z1z2+rpCdZ5OwBW+Ky9IObho8DGUU doSCYC9KUe82kcXjMgYBa1c1conOv7X31LhA4v5VwlxcSwRPd/ncz/QBDNg2tUFlLQM8 9VUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puar0b8tsez7emCUj1aALfzAgzPxzGubQj6beNaA0mzCG3qls1vh sJgQXYdc8k5+5sNdVvQFj/yILgAizvRA+4enjh8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIJkzoxqz+UQotM7DGGV46c+fLfV+rJ++7dZ3Nk0SlvPWkuC/U8BSOErf4c9C3YkBZG4zbujQm7JExFUc+WePU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1aa:: with SMTP id c10mr1683732ljn.53.1586262853982; Tue, 07 Apr 2020 05:34:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: richard coleman Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:34:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposal: Drop support for Internet Explorer To: Dave Page Cc: Dave Caughey , pgAdmin Support , pgadmin-hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee9deb05a2b29956" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --000000000000ee9deb05a2b29956 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dave, Seeing that IE isn't standards compliant and not only is not being further developed, but Microsoft is actively discouraging its use, it is probably time to drop support for it. I would caution *against* using browser analytics as any sort of proxy for use. Since pgAdmin 4 lacks a UI of its own, I rely on an instance of Chromium (or Vivalidi, or Firefox, depending on the machine) to run pgAdmin under. In every case, the browser that I am *running* pgAdmin 4 under is *not* the same browser that I use to browse websites, and so would never show up in your analytics. Just something to keep in mind, rik. On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:00 AM Dave Page wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Dave Caughey wrote: > >> Check the analytics... I think you'll find dropping it is a non-issue. In >> my own web service, I found that IE (all versions) constituted only about >> 1% of my users. >> > > Good point - 1.9% of the visitors to the website were on IE this week. 1.8 > of those were on IE11. We even had one hit from IE5... > > By comparison, 72% of users were on Chrome, 13% on Firefox, with 5.5% each > for Safari and Edge. > > >> >> So I dropped support for IE (since it was preventing me from fully >> adopting ES6), and there was not a single complaint from my users. >> >> Cheers, >> Dave >> >> On Tue., Apr. 7, 2020, 3:36 a.m. Dave Page, wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> Internet Explorer has long been superseded by Microsoft Edge, and even >>> that has recently moved to using Chromium as it's core engine. Version 11 >>> was originally released in 2013, and though Microsoft have committed to >>> supporting it until 2025, as far as I can tell there have been no notable >>> new features in almost it's entire lifetime, and certainly in recent years >>> Microsoft have only been releasing security fixes. >>> >>> As you can imagine, supporting Internet Explorer has a non-trivial cost >>> to it for the pgAdmin project. Not only do we need to test with it as well >>> as Edge, but we also need to write code, CSS and HTML that is fully >>> compatible with what essentially is a 7 year old browser. By comparison, >>> for all other browsers we typically aim to support releases no more than 2 >>> years old. >>> >>> I therefore propose that we officially drop support for Internet >>> Explorer. Practically this means that we would not test with it, and anyone >>> reporting a bug with it would be told to use an alternate browser. >>> >>> Objections/comments please? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> -- >>> Dave Page >>> Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com >>> Twitter: @pgsnake >>> >>> EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com >>> The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company >>> >> > > -- > Dave Page > Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com > Twitter: @pgsnake > > EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com > The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company > --000000000000ee9deb05a2b29956 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave,=C2=A0

Seeing that IE isn't st= andards compliant and not only is not being further developed, but Microsof= t is actively discouraging its use, it is probably time to drop support for= it.

I would caution *against* using browser analy= tics as any sort of proxy for use.=C2=A0 Since pgAdmin 4 lacks=C2=A0a UI of= its own, I rely on an instance of Chromium (or Vivalidi, or Firefox, depen= ding on the machine) to run pgAdmin under.=C2=A0 In every case, the browser= that I am *running* pgAdmin 4 under is *not* the same browser that I use t= o browse websites, and so would never show up in your analytics.
=
Just something to keep in mind,=C2=A0

rik.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 8:00 AM Dave Page <dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 12:41 PM Dave Caughey <caugheyd@gmail.com> wrote= :
Check the analytics... I think you'll find dropping it is a no= n-issue. In my own web service, I found that IE (all versions) constituted = only about 1% of my users.=C2=A0

Good point - 1.9% of the visitors to the website were on IE this week. 1.= 8 of those were on IE11. We even had one hit from IE5...

By comparison, 72% of users were on Chrome, 13% on Firefox, with 5.5= % each for Safari and Edge.
=C2=A0

So I dropped support for IE (since it was preventing me from = fully adopting ES6), and there was not a single complaint from my users.=C2= =A0

Cheers,=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">Dave

On Tue., Apr. 7, 2020, 3:36 a.m. Dave Page,= <dpage@pgadmin.o= rg> wrote:
All,

Internet Explorer has long been = superseded=C2=A0by Microsoft Edge, and even that has recently moved to usin= g Chromium as it's core engine. Version 11 was originally released in 2= 013, and though Microsoft have committed to supporting it until 2025, as fa= r as I can tell there have been no notable new features in almost it's = entire lifetime, and certainly in recent years Microsoft have only been rel= easing=C2=A0security fixes.

As you can imagine, su= pporting Internet Explorer has a non-trivial cost to it for the pgAdmin pro= ject. Not only do we need to test with it as well as Edge, but we also need= to write code, CSS and HTML that is fully compatible with what essentially= is a 7 year old browser. By comparison, for all other=C2=A0browsers we typ= ically aim to support releases no more than 2 years old.

I therefore propose that we officially drop support for Internet Exp= lorer. Practically this means that we would not test with it, and anyone re= porting a bug with it would be told to use an alternate browser.
=
Objections/comments please?

Thanks!=

--
Dave Page
Blog:= http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB= UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company=


--
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB= UK: http://www.e= nterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company
--000000000000ee9deb05a2b29956--