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From: "David Johnston" <polobo@yahoo.com>
To: "'Darren Duncan'" <darren@darrenduncan.net>
Cc: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
References: 
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	<4E498536.9080109@darrenduncan.net>
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	<4E49A208.5070604@darrenduncan.net>
In-Reply-To: <4E49A208.5070604@darrenduncan.net>
Subject: Re: Using Postgresql as application server
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:14:18 -0400
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-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org =
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Darren Duncan
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 6:48 PM
To: David Johnston
Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Using Postgresql as application server

David Johnston wrote:
>>> I believe that it is ideal for Postgres to be computationally=20
>>> complete in that one *could* use it to implement a complete=20
>>> application.  That isn't to say one should do this as a matter of=20
>>> course, good to use appropriate tools for a >>job, but that it=20
>>> should at least be possible if one wanted to. -- Darren Duncan
>=20
> So who wants to fund the effort to create the necessary infrastructure =

> to display a programmer-defined user interface screen (think of the =
"Forms"
> module in Microsoft Access)?  Or are you expecting the end-user to=20
> open up PgAdmin and type "SELECT hello_world();".  I would argue that=20
> because PostgreSQL is able to talk with many languages that can create =
these "Forms"
> (or even - through extensions - a web-browser) that such functionality =

> is NOT DESIREABLE and thus PostgreSQL would not ideally be=20
> "computationally complete" by that definition.

I mean computationally complete in that Postgres is an application-level =
virtual machine within which it is technically possible to write an =
emulator for any given computationally complete language using just =
stock Postgres and stock PLs, such that say you can just feed a =
self-contained script to psql and that this script is an application =
capable of doing anything.  I'm not saying that it has to perform well =
but just be possible.

I certainly don't expect any interface-related higher level libraries =
from this effort, but the foundation should be there so users can create =
their own just by writing an installable Postgres extension consisting =
of PL procedures etc that don't need a C compiler.

I believe we basically have all the foundation already, with maybe =
procedures executable outside transactions being the last major part.

-- Darren Duncan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------

This whole line is getting somewhat off-topic; we're not talking about a =
"computationally complete" application but simply one that can handle =
HTTP requests and dispatch calls to user-defined methods.  This seems =
like a small-enough requirement and seems to already have a solution =
(though I haven't looked at the provided links); whether you call it =
PostgreSQL or not is a matter of semantics (as is much of this thead).

That said...

Please restate your request in terms of benefits as opposed to checklist =
of cool features that barely work but, because they are present, can be =
added to the marketing materials.

I rather cater to a user that is capable and willing to choose multiple, =
separate, best-of-breed applications as opposed to those that want =
"Microsoft Access" on steroids.  Given limited resources even software =
obeys the axiom "Jack of All Trades; Master of None".

If PostgreSQL was actually getting money for each user then maybe a =
focus on adding additional "user experience" features would be =
warranted; as it is the effort should be in making the Free Core as good =
as possible and encourage and assist a community to build tools (core =
augments and developer).  This is opposed to the "do everything =
ourselves" mentality that you seem to prescribe.  While this community =
exists now my personal impression is that more efforts could be taken to =
make it more prominent and accessible to users.  Think of it as giving =
new users the course outline and "required reading" documents and then =
saying that they can spend the time to teach themselves the fundamentals =
or direct them to capable teachers who can help guide them.  Likely =
these teachers would be willing to provide the outline and other =
materials for the opportunity to gain new students.  PostgreSQL could =
then serve as an unbiased moderator; attempting to make sure that there =
is a variety of philosophies represented as well as to review the =
accuracy/tone of the materials that they certify.

David J.