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Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2026 20:31:05 +0200
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Subject: Re: what is the difference between ROLE clause and IN ROLE clause for
 CREATE USER statement ?
To: Benjamin Leis <benleis1@gmail.com>
Cc: pgsql-admin@lists.postgresql.org, sonicmonkey@gmail.com
References: <cc3ebec7-0690-4924-a644-9d0d708e1635@gmail.com>
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From: Pierre Forstmann <pierre.forstmann@gmail.com>
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I have asked chatgpt which says:

/CREATE USER ur  ROLE    pg_maintain;  -- pg_maintain is a member of ur
CREATE USER uri IN ROLE pg_maintain;  -- uri is a member of pg_maintain
/

/which creates following role hierarchy:/

/ur
↑
pg_maintain
↑
uri/

/
/

/and *only |uri| is below |pg_maintain| in the membership hierarchy, so 
|uri| inherits |pg_maintain|'s maintenance privileges.*/

/That is exactly why |vacuumdb -U uri| succeeds while |vacuumdb -U ur| 
skips the catalogs./


Even if know that roles and users are almost the same entities in PG, I 
find this confusing.

Thanks.


Le 02/09/2026 à 07:52, Benjamin Leis a écrit :
> I think create in role makes the user a member of the specified role. 
> While create role makes the roles members of this new user group.  So 
> it's a question of which is the container and what is being contained.
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2026, 10:16 PM Pierre Forstmann 
> <pierre.forstmann@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>     Hello,
>
>     I don't understand the difference even after reading CREATE
>     USER/CREATE
>     ROLE documentation.
>
>     Here is a scenario that shows a difference with PG 18.6 (built
>     with pgenv):
>
>     pierre=# create user ur role pg_maintain;
>     CREATE ROLE
>     pierre=# create user uri  in role pg_maintain;
>     CREATE ROLE
>     pierre=# \du
>                                   List of roles
>       Role name |                         Attributes
>     -----------+------------------------------------------------------------
>       pierre    | Superuser
>       postgres  | Superuser, Create role, Create DB, Replication,
>     Bypass RLS
>       ur        |
>       uri       |
>
>     pierre=# \l
>                                                           List of
>     databases
>         Name    |  Owner   | Encoding | Locale Provider |  Collate  |
>     Ctype    | Locale | ICU Rules |   Access privileges
>     -----------+----------+----------+-----------------+-------------+-------------+--------+-----------+-----------------------
>       pierre    | pierre   | UTF8     | libc            | en_US.UTF-8 |
>     en_US.UTF-8 |        |           |
>       postgres  | postgres | UTF8     | libc            | en_US.UTF-8 |
>     en_US.UTF-8 |        |           |
>       template0 | postgres | UTF8     | libc            | en_US.UTF-8 |
>     en_US.UTF-8 |        |           | =c/postgres          +
>                 |          |          |                 |  |        |
>            |           | postgres=CTc/postgres
>       template1 | postgres | UTF8     | libc            | en_US.UTF-8 |
>     en_US.UTF-8 |        |           | =c/postgres          +
>                 |          |          |                 |  |        |
>            |           | postgres=CTc/postgres
>     (4 rows)
>
>
>     pierre@alma:~$ vacuumdb -U ur
>     vacuumdb: vacuuming database "pierre"
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_proc", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_attribute", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_description", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_collation", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_type", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_class", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_rewrite", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_operator", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_depend", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_features", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_amop", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_constraint", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_amproc", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_config_map", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_index", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_init_privs", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_opclass", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_aggregate", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_cast", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_opfamily", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_conversion", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_namespace", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_implementation_info",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_am", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_language", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_authid", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_database", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_tablespace", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_auth_members", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shdescription", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_config", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_dict", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_parser", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_template", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_extension", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_range", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_parts", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_sizing", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shdepend", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_transform", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_sequence", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_subscription", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_publication", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_publication_namespace",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_publication_rel",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_subscription_rel",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_foreign_data_wrapper",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_foreign_server", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_policy", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_replication_origin",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_default_acl", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_inherits", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_seclabel", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shseclabel", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_user_mapping", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_trigger", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_event_trigger", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic_ext_data",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic_ext", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_enum", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_attrdef", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_largeobject_metadata",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_foreign_table", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_parameter_acl", skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_db_role_setting",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_partitioned_table",
>     skipping it
>     WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_largeobject", skipping it
>     pierre@alma:~$ vacuumdb -U uri
>     vacuumdb: vacuuming database "pierre"
>     pierre@alma:~$
>
>
>     Thanks.
>
>
>
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<!DOCTYPE html>
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  <body>
    <p>I have asked chatgpt which says:</p>
    <p><i>CREATE USER ur  ROLE    pg_maintain;  -- pg_maintain is a
        member of ur<br>
        CREATE USER uri IN ROLE pg_maintain;  -- uri is a member of
        pg_maintain<br>
      </i></p>
    <p><i>which creates following role hierarchy:</i></p>
    <p><i>ur<br>
        ↑<br>
        pg_maintain<br>
        ↑<br>
        uri</i></p>
    <p><i><br>
      </i></p>
    <p><i>and <strong>only <code>uri</code> is below <code>pg_maintain</code>
          in the membership hierarchy, so <code>uri</code> inherits <code>pg_maintain</code>'s
          maintenance privileges.</strong></i></p>
    <p><i>That is exactly why <code>vacuumdb -U uri</code> succeeds
        while <code>vacuumdb -U ur</code> skips the catalogs.</i></p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Even if know that roles and users are almost the same entities in
      PG, I find this confusing.</p>
    <p>Thanks.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 02/09/2026 à 07:52, Benjamin Leis a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADP9qHt-VxrnznQ5DyVK6DpC39HuBOY1FSRkO_TH5UOETzZnBQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">I think create in role makes the user a member of
        the specified role. While create role makes the roles members of
        this new user group.  So it's a question of which is the
        container and what is being contained. </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 1, 2026, 10:16 PM
          Pierre Forstmann &lt;<a
            href="mailto:pierre.forstmann@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pierre.forstmann@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hello,<br>
          <br>
          I don't understand the difference even after reading CREATE
          USER/CREATE <br>
          ROLE documentation.<br>
          <br>
          Here is a scenario that shows a difference with PG 18.6 (built
          with pgenv):<br>
          <br>
          pierre=# create user ur role pg_maintain;<br>
          CREATE ROLE<br>
          pierre=# create user uri  in role pg_maintain;<br>
          CREATE ROLE<br>
          pierre=# \du<br>
                                        List of roles<br>
            Role name |                         Attributes<br>
-----------+------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            pierre    | Superuser<br>
            postgres  | Superuser, Create role, Create DB, Replication,
          Bypass RLS<br>
            ur        |<br>
            uri       |<br>
          <br>
          pierre=# \l<br>
                                                                List of
          databases<br>
              Name    |  Owner   | Encoding | Locale Provider | 
           Collate  |    <br>
          Ctype    | Locale | ICU Rules |   Access privileges<br>
-----------+----------+----------+-----------------+-------------+-------------+--------+-----------+-----------------------<br>
            pierre    | pierre   | UTF8     | libc            |
          en_US.UTF-8 | <br>
          en_US.UTF-8 |        |           |<br>
            postgres  | postgres | UTF8     | libc            |
          en_US.UTF-8 | <br>
          en_US.UTF-8 |        |           |<br>
            template0 | postgres | UTF8     | libc            |
          en_US.UTF-8 | <br>
          en_US.UTF-8 |        |           | =c/postgres          +<br>
                      |          |          |                 |  |     
                 |  <br>
                 |           | postgres=CTc/postgres<br>
            template1 | postgres | UTF8     | libc            |
          en_US.UTF-8 | <br>
          en_US.UTF-8 |        |           | =c/postgres          +<br>
                      |          |          |                 |  |     
                 |  <br>
                 |           | postgres=CTc/postgres<br>
          (4 rows)<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          pierre@alma:~$ vacuumdb -U ur<br>
          vacuumdb: vacuuming database "pierre"<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_proc", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_attribute", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_description",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_collation", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_type", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_class", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_rewrite", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_operator", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_depend", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_features", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_amop", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_constraint",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_amproc", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_config_map",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_index", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_init_privs",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_opclass", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_aggregate", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_cast", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_opfamily", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_conversion",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_namespace", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum
          "sql_implementation_info", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_am", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_language", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_authid", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_database", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_tablespace",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_auth_members",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shdescription",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_config", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_dict", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_parser", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_ts_template",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_extension", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_range", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_parts", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "sql_sizing", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shdepend", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_transform", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_sequence", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_subscription",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_publication",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum
          "pg_publication_namespace", <br>
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_publication_rel",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_subscription_rel",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum
          "pg_foreign_data_wrapper", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_foreign_server",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_policy", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_replication_origin",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_default_acl",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_inherits", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_seclabel", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_shseclabel",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_user_mapping",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_trigger", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_event_trigger",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic_ext_data",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_statistic_ext",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_enum", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_attrdef", skipping
          it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum
          "pg_largeobject_metadata", skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_foreign_table",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_parameter_acl",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_db_role_setting",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_partitioned_table",
          skipping it<br>
          WARNING:  permission denied to vacuum "pg_largeobject",
          skipping it<br>
          pierre@alma:~$ vacuumdb -U uri<br>
          vacuumdb: vacuuming database "pierre"<br>
          pierre@alma:~$<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Thanks.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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