Subject: Citus Data becomes Microsoft

From: "Tsunakawa, Takayuki" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 03:33:48 +0000

https://blogs.microsoft.com/blog/2019/01/24/microsoft-acquires-citus-data-re-affirming-its-commitment-to-open-source-and-accelerating-azure-postgresql-performance-and-scale

Congratulations on Citus Data!

Regards
Takayuki Tsunakawa

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:06:44 +1100

That is absolutely terrible news. :(

Looks like they've taken a leaf from the Oracle playbook. :( :( :(

+ Justin

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From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 01:14:33 -0300

> Looks like they've taken a leaf from the Oracle playbook. :( :( :(

Well, isn't this what everyone said about Microsoft buying GitHub?
However, nothing terrible seems to have happened to GitHub ... rather
the opposite, I think.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:47:47 +1100

> Well, isn't this what everyone said about Microsoft buying GitHub?

Yes.

> However, nothing terrible seems to have happened to GitHub ... rather

That's weird.  They started introducing "Social Network" features last
week, regardless of said features have a negative effect on user focus
and attention to detail. :(

Also, the reason why I nuked every GitHub repo, gist, and useful star
I have.  Not just needing to figure out an alternative OAuth provider,
before completely deleting the account.

Obviously, you have a different opinion. ;)

+ Justin

---

From: "Tsunakawa, Takayuki" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 04:51:00 +0000

From: Alvaro Herrera [mailto:[email-masked]]
> However, nothing terrible seems to have happened to GitHub ... rather

Yeah.  OTOH, I probably feel the same or similar concern as Justin has -- a tough era for independent PostgreSQL providers...

AWS, MongoDB, and the Economic Realities of Open Source
https://stratechery.com/2019/aws-mongodb-and-the-economic-realities-of-open-source/

Regards
Takayuki Tsunakawa

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:16:38 -0300

> and attention to detail. :(

Are you saying that Microsoft is out to destroy open source communities
by way of adding features to github that would diminish their abilities
to get things done?  This doesn't sound like a realistic threat to me.

I don't like "social networks" myself, but I can't blame MS for going
that route.  It's just what young people seem to ask for.

Microsoft today doesn't seem Microsoft 20 years ago.

> before completely deleting the account.

Right, and many migrated to gitlab and other providers; but it seems to
me that Microsoft hasn't actually done any harm to those that stayed.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 09:46:34 +1100

> On 2019-Jan-25, Justin Clift wrote:
<snip>
> to get things done?

This conversation is bordering on bizarre. ;)

Microsoft is an organisation which is clearly - from their actions - on
the "evil" side of behaviour.  From old RPG-player slang ;), somewhere
between neutral evil and chaotic evil.

On the one hand, they're been making inroads to OSS - after finally
realising OSS really is a more effective better development model than
proprietary (in most cases).  On the other hand, they're still pulling
whatever unethical crap they feel is in their best interests, and only
getting away with it either due to the law being slow or their qty of
lawyers:

   * Forced upgrades of Windows (seems mostly over now?)
   * Forcing telemetry on all users.  Still happening.

     Note - If you reckon them being told (literally) every time their
     users click the start menu isn't a gross violation of personal
     privacy, I reckon that's just weird.  Some people seem ok with it,
     but personally I don't even have words to describe just how far
     wrong that is. :(

If you're ok with the PostgreSQL Community falling under the influence
of this kind of organisation, then sure, that's you're opinion.

I **really** don't want us to have anything to do with them though.
They're likely to invest in areas that make sense (which *seems* good),
but will happily screw us over in whatever ways - and make noises to
the opposite effect - that seem to their best interests.

Are they unique in this aspect?  Hell no.

We've avoided much of other evil organisations (Oracle springs to mind)
tentacles thus far.

Hopefully the other significant PostgreSQL supporting companies don't
become prey like this. :(

> Microsoft today doesn't seem Microsoft 20 years ago.

As per above, they don't seem different at all.

+ Justin

---

From: Michael Meskes <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:12:12 +0100

> This conversation is bordering on bizarre. ;)

Would you care to tell us why? 

>     but personally I don't even have words to describe just how far

Does this one bad behaviour make them an evil organisation per se? One could
also see this is one more step to go. There are indeed very positive
MS interactions with OSS communities.

Besides I don't see your point as far as this group is involved. 

> of this kind of organisation, then sure, that's you're opinion.

I might have missed quite a few discussions, could you please point me to some
where Microsoft has tried to get PostgreSQL under its influence as opposed to
work with the community?

> Are they unique in this aspect?  Hell no.

Quite a few more companies in the larger PostgreSQL ecosystem come to mind that
seem to be worse than Microsoft from what I experienced. At least I
have never seen Microsoft work actively against the PostgreSQL community.
 
> As per above, they don't seem different at all.

I would strongly disagree. There is certainly a huge difference. Have they
finished their turnaround? Probably not. But their actions are way better for
open open source than 20 years ago. 

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org)
Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org
Jabber: michael at xmpp dot meskes dot org
VfL Borussia! Força Barça! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux, PostgreSQL

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 02:48:29 +1100

On 2019-01-27 01:12, Michael Meskes wrote:
<snip>
> Does this one bad behaviour make them an evil organisation per se?

How about, does their continual bad behaviour - which is extremely
well documented over *decades* - of which this is one action...
warrant any kind of good will towards them?

You're saying they've changed.  I'm saying they haven't.  Same
org, "different clothes" so to speak. ;)

+ Justin

---

From: Robert Haas <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 23:17:37 -0500

> warrant any kind of good will towards them?

I don't think this conversation is really helping us figure anything
out.  I think it's an open question whether Microsoft acquiring Citus
is good or bad for PostgreSQL, and I think that question probably
deserves some sober reflection, as does the related question of
whether Amazon acquiring OpenSCG is good or bad for PostgreSQL, but I
disagree that the particular points that you mention answer that
question.  If Microsoft acquiring Citus is bad for PostgreSQL, it's
probably got to do with whether there are viable independent
PostgreSQL companies out there that can serve as employers for people
who want to get paid to work on PostgreSQL, not whether or not they
added social networking features to Github.  If it's good for
PostgreSQL, it's probably got to do with the value of having really
large companies interested in this database that used to be basically
the domain of hobbyists but is now big business.  Or maybe it's a
little of both?

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

---

From: Daniel Gustafsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 09:47:42 +0100

> On 28 Jan 2019, at 05:17, Robert Haas <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Or maybe it's a little of both?

I’m certain that it is, and I’m equally certain that’s one of the core
strengths of the project when it comes to acquisitions.  The culture of the
project is spread so widely over such a diverse group of people and companies
that no one company will be able to control it.

Hopefully this means that we can get Microsoft to pick up the Schannel patch! =)

cheers ./daniel