Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1qeBiP-0061j2-Kp for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:54:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1qeBiO-00HZYK-3l for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:54:19 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1qeBiN-00HZY0-Q6 for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:54:19 +0000 Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1qeBiJ-003d69-1v for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:54:19 +0000 Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-52a49a42353so961372a12.2 for ; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 02:54:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pgadmin.org; s=google; t=1694080454; x=1694685254; darn=lists.postgresql.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=afaNI0WOQFXKPV/IyUk0myzKoOwQAE6/xEJhivQzQyw=; b=fcWGJlo7PcSCNdiani9pVcHZYI27tAKhpvMviPR69wP4oxDtOIJ+2fDP42YYqZ4Mzc S0OKxetq4LWedQjRl3xh+No7uy25t63DdcSRyjAZ2UVmhzJbwQVjbqUzaL+ewQBuJjaa UNDCNziFQsAxwxBJke2wBR+UagM5pu9anjpn8ZPr2KX+ADBaZqezFwVmvAmx3VStGWNr x3HUKKWVTP3nnpxt/mv0FgYy/NaqL7T28MaSCkVzV7FPAKDSZ5JD0HzPWje5hJ1iDjXm L4PXJ85EEHaq3PiYMflN6r06T9HgEgPsPuSQQbsK50OdpXVvQM0/nIkff/XDNxxcegLn tZxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1694080454; x=1694685254; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=afaNI0WOQFXKPV/IyUk0myzKoOwQAE6/xEJhivQzQyw=; b=X/RdIkMHMUmc7FMGq9bGy4zcQf+8+lpO0hu7zthLFro6eOm2ctofQarnpP39EyRPAo SuTI3bOanfa3Xetp2hv/eRbDH3oX3Tmmjt9lpQe9wu14OjBuyz4ZUaSzGXVvs4l0PaHE 7OTnXzHBp0Q40d8xibzKNxIg1+/T8mxz6txTovKspumITMfT5L08uzZ/b+1UtUhmYNED K0zsjik1GNyuLlZogc8MAtg6JeGcorjU7QDzZQbqJBEUKO2m48YHv66r6EoN/tZ5bJUN cUp+jJE09bQqrEhl7JAJC/fRAEdIAG0ZsaqH7eVog1ACt7mwE1Mx2POMX/b6yefb5SB0 hzww== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxtTRRJe9wolZ9NxxMfFQFvnrelNNl8Uq8weo9782xwy6BAZ/Gp VikzyJePBXaM4c/jh4Kpjv8wpkbHnbog6f95zBu55A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEbK0a6wicfuzDkWTtWjR/+Xymyt+BbwCrQi/Jph3LZ8AYC+l1reV84TKzY8UNpzFj2f0tJSFJDeAF0+R6lKzw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:31d2:b0:9a5:c79f:bed4 with SMTP id f18-20020a17090631d200b009a5c79fbed4mr4605911ejf.8.1694080453945; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Page Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 10:54:02 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) To: Chris Travers Cc: Benjamin Scherrey , Magnus Hagander , Justin Clift , PostgreSQL Advocacy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000adc1d50604c1d730" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --000000000000adc1d50604c1d730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 10:51, Chris Travers wrote= : > An important lesson here is to always sit down with a client and > understand their needs before selling an ERP....... > Meanwhile, there's a sales guy (well, team) somewhere feeling very happy about all the consulting hours they're booking and what their commission is going to be... > > On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM Benjamin Scherrey < > scherrey@proteus-tech.com> wrote: > >> Well a) the costs of the system (still undelivered) is 4x the initial >> contract ; and b) they've determined that the ERP was incapable of >> performing the functions of the contract because it orientation for >> manufacturing rather than HR. So not even Oracle has a competing product= ! >> >> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 4:28 PM Dave Page wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49=E2=80=AFAM Justin Clift >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/ >>>> > >>>> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, >>>> has >>>> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle >>>> project >>>> > costs ballooned from =C2=A320 million to around =C2=A3100 millio= n ($125.5 >>>> > million)." >>>> > >>>> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose >>>> PG >>>> > + a decent vendor instead? :) >>>> >>>> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So >>>> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products >>>> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle >>>> something like that... >>>> >>> >>> Indeed. It also only amounts for a fraction of the council's >>> liabilities. The vast majority is from an equal pay judgement against t= hem, >>> which iirc, totals a couple of billion pounds (of which they've paid of= f >>> over half in the last decade I believe). >>> >>> So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a massive screw up. But it's not what >>> caused the majority of their problems. >>> >>> -- >>> Dave Page >>> pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org >>> PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org >>> EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com >>> >>> PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Best Wishes, > Chris Travers > > Efficito: Hosted Accounting and ERP. Robust and Flexible. No vendor > lock-in. > http://www.efficito.com/learn_more > --=20 Dave Page pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk --000000000000adc1d50604c1d730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 10:51, Chris T= ravers <chris.travers@gmail.c= om> wrote:
An important= =C2=A0lesson=C2=A0here is to always sit down with a client and understand t= heir needs before selling an ERP.......

Meanwhile, there's a sales guy (well, team) somewhere feeling very h= appy about all the consulting hours they're booking and what their comm= ission=C2=A0is going to be...
=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep = 7, 2023 at 3:51=E2=80=AFPM Benjamin Scherrey <scherrey@proteus-tech.com> wrot= e:
Well a) the costs of the sys= tem (still undelivered) is 4x the initial contract ; and b) they've det= ermined that the ERP was incapable of performing the functions of the contr= act because it orientation for manufacturing rather than HR. So not even Or= acle has a competing product!=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 4:28 PM Dave Page &= lt;dpage@pgadmin.org= > wrote:


On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net= > wrote:
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49=E2=80= =AFAM Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote:
>
> Heh Heh Heh.=C2=A0 This is pretty funny:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 h= ttps://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/ >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authorit= y in Europe, has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0declared itself in financial distress after trouble= d Oracle project
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0costs ballooned from =C2=A320 million to around =C2= =A3100 million ($125.5
> million)."
>
> Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choo= se PG
> + a decent vendor instead? :)

In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products<= br> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
something like that...

Indeed. It also = only amounts for a fraction of the council's liabilities. The vast majo= rity is from an equal pay judgement against them, which iirc, totals a coup= le of billion pounds (of which they've paid off over half in the last d= ecade I believe).

So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a = massive screw up. But it's not what caused the majority of their proble= ms.
=C2=A0
-- <= /span>


--
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

Effi= cito: =C2=A0Hosted Accounting and ERP.=C2=A0 Robust and Flexible.=C2=A0 No = vendor lock-in.


--
Dave Page
PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.or= g

PGDay UK 2023, Septe= mber 12, London: https:= //2023.pgday.uk


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