Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q7HGU-0002SB-WE for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:09:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q7HGT-0002NS-Nf for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:09:29 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1q7HGT-0002NJ-Es for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:09:29 +0000 Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1q7HGQ-0012j0-FB for pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:09:28 +0000 Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-977e7d6945aso139275966b.2 for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 08:09:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1686236966; x=1688828966; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9O0Tm8VKg6R8m65ZjZRVJpmeIQbrFWnW2qdV4drutrw=; b=ZevvFbiZ35tmaazFj2S3KxOZnW0uIcmwhsRBfoYTY/Fd2jbDcxfzDR6+yUm0bn3qoa 1Vt4WUHJCgG4gpIx3SarqjKR3WbeW2Gk8dZpQn0yHSIKnG++VCHTQgjcjAsxXxu5+599 mBw9SNY6lK1+1AiUmK+SfT8y37l/opSlCAH6t9mUdr/prW41AjFJPXEyEbxmMzPd3usR Sf55UJzfX2N5fwomm/yymcLQql0zKaCCkJti47Zg/nv/LZrxmr/dEyrLNoca8qvhHGr6 2EwE3b1Gh4+LuhAfHHxtnh3u79anygGraIqis5nv9VLDtnXR7feAFdobMsPSdy3VMZsU Ep2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1686236966; x=1688828966; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9O0Tm8VKg6R8m65ZjZRVJpmeIQbrFWnW2qdV4drutrw=; b=PnZwhHUpCRD4nxN2DWoOehJhTo5hOE+p4bE5LZ3AXJf163wHN90t/bZnR4fW2VqN4A xP5GJAi7PLIBCainHlOVd07V5q/5CSV9neGfV9yTG3ZGuX5tsss9PLsCmFV3Q2ZfWrrm sNpfPhSaubvg3/llxBc6LCGr6mEjA4bMhjRS3NzMJUGca6kHfIyRalPe790d8Nj7wNg3 N5TxdVTmOypPtgTX2dEghYNGTC4pYe+no2o6UBHLP0P8MxEDg6+WcIpdZ5zbm1vLOlKp mpgANNU4cMY3GItUvGh8la/HJ4+whDnVGM6PcBdNa3lSzYflbUN14sR9/FJw3sIsJsFu 43Bg== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwxbdpXeq5IYJ+Qy/D/I+t2MX3jSWJA2zJEdU9e9yjvOwZgVxJf ywS46igi4xAaSUFkipizeStXyBUGLqL5pa+GWvyn54qiQXk8HQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5ILBDZWfnHlofYFoctMPE9aQq2WxxQhq/udWH80ayZlAa8Q8cxL2HzMW6z8yUjIjGiGE0j7GbSGCCyPQCAtxE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7f89:b0:973:a685:10cf with SMTP id qk9-20020a1709077f8900b00973a68510cfmr10657995ejc.77.1686236965404; Thu, 08 Jun 2023 08:09:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230606.103516.395571408093366645.t-ishii@sranhm.sra.co.jp> <420735c2-f718-17fe-6f0c-96f969a20bcb@aklaver.com> <964325640.821476.1686230765866@connect.xfinity.com> In-Reply-To: From: Charly Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2023 12:09:13 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: RFC: a new try for an official community approved certification To: James Keener Cc: Robert Bernier , pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054c14605fd9fa3c5" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --00000000000054c14605fd9fa3c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to start by stating that I don't believe in certifications. I mean, they are good guides for people who want to start studying and enter the niche the certification is testing, but they don't measure knowledge. They measure how much content one is able to memorize, which is by no means, knowledge. That said, I like the process @James described. For written tests, just give the candidates 1k questions book and randomly pick XX number of questions. If they get it right, they at least went to the book and have a good memory. If they fail, try again. IMHO, if we really want to attempt to test knowledge, then we need to think of having simulated "challenges" to be solved. And it doesn't matter if the user has or not access to the internet, if they can ask or not for help. If they are able to solve, and explain the reasons they solved the problem, then they have shown they acquired the needed knowledge for that level of certificate. Those are my 2=C2=A2 On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 at 11:41, James Keener wrote: > I don't really have any business being in this discussion, but I figured > I'd toss this in anyway. I realize it's not in-line with what many of yo= u > are thinking, but it may be a good example to follow if we align > expectations with what it provides. Also, apologies if this has come up; > I've been trying to follow but there have been a lot of messages. > > In the US, to get an Amerature Radio license you have to study the > requisite material, which includes the exam questions and answers. The ex= am > is administered by anyone who has passed the VE (Volunteer Examiner) exam > and is 2nd or 3rd level. There are currently 3 license levels: Technician= , > General, and Extra. Each one has more in-depth question, but all of the > questions and answers for all levels are public. The exam taken is a > randomized subset of those questions. (I believe it's something like 10%?= I > could be wrong without looking it up.) > > As for mechanics of administering the exam, at least three VEs need to be > present who are not related to you and who are of the level you're testin= g > for or higher. Due to Covid, remote exams are now allowed/more common, bu= t > are done with webcam on during the exam so the VE can watch. > > While this is obviously easy to game, the expectation is that if you > passed the exam, even if you only studied the questions and answers, you'= d > have the basic amount of knowledge needed to operate at the license level > you passed with. > > Jim > > On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 9:26=E2=80=AFAM Robert Bernier > wrote: > >> Guys, >> >> I still have bad memories when we tried this the last time some 15 years >> ago. >> >> Let's do this in small steps: >> - Create a mail list just for this thread >> - Instead of creating an approved certification how's about developing a= n >> RFC of sorts outlining expected competencies for various classifications= of >> knowledge (that should be real fun) is expected to carry out certain tas= ks. >> Then, after there's some sort of agreement in the community. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> Robert Bernier >> robert.bernier@percona.com >> >> >> --=20 Regards, *Charly Batista* *Shanghai, China* *carlbsb@gmail.com * *https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlybatista/ * *Linux user #391083* *=E2=80=9CIf you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these ap= ples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas." George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)* --00000000000054c14605fd9fa3c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like to start by stating that I don't bel= ieve in certifications. I mean, they are good guides for people who want to= start studying and enter the niche the certification is testing, but they = don't measure knowledge. They measure how much content one is able to m= emorize, which is by no means, knowledge.

That sai= d, I like the process @James described. For written tests, just give the ca= ndidates 1k questions book and randomly pick XX number of questions. If the= y get it right, they at least went to the book and have a good memory. If t= hey fail, try again.

IMHO, if we really want to at= tempt to test knowledge, then we need to think of having simulated "ch= allenges" to be solved. And it doesn't matter if the user has or n= ot access to the internet, if they can ask or not for help. If they are abl= e to solve, and explain the reasons they solved the problem, then they have= shown they acquired the needed knowledge for that level of certificate.

Those are my 2=C2=A2

On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 at 11:4= 1, James Keener <jim@jimkeener.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
I don't really have any business being in this dis= cussion, but I figured I'd toss this in anyway.=C2=A0 I realize it'= s not in-line with what many of you are thinking, but it may be a good exam= ple to follow if we align expectations with what it provides. Also, apologi= es if this has come up; I've been trying to follow but there have been = a lot of messages.

In the US, to get an Amerat= ure Radio license you have to study the requisite material, which includes = the exam questions and answers. The exam is administered by anyone who has = passed the VE (Volunteer Examiner) exam and is 2nd or 3rd level. There are = currently 3 license levels: Technician, General, and Extra. Each one has mo= re in-depth question, but all of the questions and answers for all levels a= re public. The exam taken is a randomized subset of those questions. (I bel= ieve it's something like 10%? I could be wrong without looking it up.)<= /div>

As for mechanics of administering the exam, at lea= st three VEs need to be present who are not related to you and who are of t= he level you're testing for or higher. Due to Covid, remote exams are n= ow allowed/more common, but are done with webcam on during the exam so the = VE can watch.

While this is obviously easy to = game, the expectation is that if you passed the exam, even if you only stud= ied the questions and answers, you'd have the basic amount of knowledge= needed to operate at the license level you passed with.

Jim

Guys,

I still have bad memories when we tried this the last time some 15 years ag= o.

Let's do this in small steps:
- Create a mail list just for this thread
- Instead of creating an approved certification how's about developing = an RFC of sorts outlining expected competencies for various classifications= of knowledge (that should be real fun) is expected to carry out certain ta= sks. Then, after there's some sort of agreement in the community.

Hope this helps.

Robert Bernier
robert.bern= ier@percona.com




--
Regards,

Charly Batista
= Shanghai, China
= Linux user #391083
=E2=80=9CIf you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these ap= ples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea= and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have = two ideas."
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
--00000000000054c14605fd9fa3c5--