Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tewQw-00GWOt-4q for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:24:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tewQv-00Dusa-3n for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:24:13 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tewQu-00DupL-Nr for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:24:12 +0000 Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1tewQs-002x81-0c for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:24:11 +0000 Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2f44353649aso5558650a91.0 for ; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 05:24:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1738589050; x=1739193850; darn=lists.postgresql.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Z27jfjiBqVBbS7RjugM5Y1ERqqlf7l8GcKMnFEHI6s0=; b=lyWYLLeTMLjzgHeIGB/CSNESiTkBNNCx1tWQ7HIUhCKzpNLWfNOyEU2pMxnCSKYTYS GX0mKTd9OHQQw0Gg6euMU1aSyqS9yh/LgfQOh35sP717YktsP5Mwi0gUGYavXafz+v3L gEOgBw1MJLbKEkZ6Xd4eAsGDbytuGuglDm/cheQZzFew4mgdLFGeQCtHaQUk+1F1BdhR hBkAWLM3GGgWeEYgQ+LWcHYukHmGf2iv0KfkNguW6o4z/66p7HDq+lGYX9mR7fbAW2q/ +jPOg+IsC9tWcqgQkf9/uJscDwG57DahuxetTz388wxdwP1w2L9LQO1gnFyZj1MjrxmI jDjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1738589050; x=1739193850; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Z27jfjiBqVBbS7RjugM5Y1ERqqlf7l8GcKMnFEHI6s0=; b=Vanv/lgVZhlemcJxSUUOSJHlopJsQYnw7QhjvFcW0Gd3G/etTSkrZK/R82/QLpM2QQ TGWnM/A77jpErQNgmNLb6VEfv1Qid0fSVyZ2u1L1SHJtINk270REyvmE6f4SGVEl3vmq y4ZGwegiN8VqBDbG9SLeVTusp70fRvNfODOK97wqQlFj2P1y+cQeerrBceHSBP1QT7oB NyMFvSZ1Gh8rEksMcXdUWKVBBncSdAgq9ycCj+9oM0c/HfsNVsTLppreqhxZKLzwLbRo xeTxgto0ZxyThNF6ggte2HTmyUUHaRR1hQkVt67VC913p8SGbplCIAqnZ7LkwjD5z0aL f/zA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCX3vVdEQfFdfUqicT8D5ZkHasSsLTBl/r9jmoYLj4gUpJ1c4CmQuWEuimriv72cNQnuHIfDdi5JFV3wmglmHw==@lists.postgresql.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yym3r2rjg6Vm1irfQ7VGxt58iC8dwGohqMWDQtGCJKVFeF3Th7J ku5JGK4zfwJEXqzqauHdWW8ffQjEEsfv75IcSgtAM1aZ8o15QjKBFcXNE4TNeInY82KPgx6tD4F BTjQgG38sTeF3o5t1iRucaiCoRHw= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuBrhIbQLUibugnPHonUFAeLQTS4P71RhIYBbcKDkrDOZ0dqVi1Ffn6ZEntd0M IPLdLKiFKB1wu6egvTbpJbG+2lUmlTMS0jCpXFQTnt4cRIJmB/0sxeuK4z7gnnsmDURUshmU7qd 81zbEDF8Z2QywnJCG8FVFS16Dm6HZl7lU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGPyFEInAf1+fv1wELmm66ix7+k4sqZIag6QUcT2rAdwDYdALCfhgp7/rXT5ojOzwO2R4DA66acloRQFwZlDfg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:2703:b0:2ee:8008:b583 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2f83abfb7e2mr35995627a91.16.1738589049384; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 05:24:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <551181.1737756577@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49df303f741ce4a12a4ab757742eed0e@postgresql.org> In-Reply-To: From: Vish Penmetsa Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 18:53:57 +0530 X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZkk7jHfsfXlbm8KSzGjFxC53Xt0G_MQ54r8If_0yLw79-xqoRuPYfLbc_Y Message-ID: Subject: Re: PostgreSql and VMS operating System To: Justin Clift Cc: Tom Lane , Bruce Momjian , Christophe Pettus , Daniel Gustafsson , pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b305c8062d3cce83" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --000000000000b305c8062d3cce83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was a book called Thriving on Chaos around eighties or nineties which took VMS as an example of Technology Industry Leaderhsip and said their technology leadership might be taken for granted for only 18 months by which time Competitors could probably catch up. But then I had said that VMS seems to have become a small userbase operating system not for competitors catching up but sudden boom for small servers where everyone went for Unix so I felt that it might be worth taking a relook again for postgresql and python and combination. On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:34=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa wrote: > Anyway probably it might be good for postgres hackers to go thru some > strengths of VMS with an R&D Engineer rather than my speaking - I also > worked in presales and I am not an R&D Engineer so... > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa > wrote: > >> Unix is a programmer's operating system and obviously programmes like it= . >> >> About VMS there is a bit of history that Bill Gates from Microsft had >> hired Bill Cutler from the VMS Team to build Windows operating system. >> >> And obviously at that time the focus was more on Windows interfaces >> rather than the VMS like OS which was more of a server. >> >> And when it comes to PostgreSQl whe will be really loking at the server >> side of things rather than it's user interface capabilities where one >> migth Windows to be far more >> useful and easy. >> >> DEC had lost of the following Industry leading Advantages - DECNet -> >> TCP/IP >> OSF - Linux >> Alpha architecture - Everyone caught up with 64 bit chips while DEC Alph= a >> was the first 64 bit chip. >> Cluster Architecture -> Oracle & RAC & Unix >> >> And in all these we have'n t looked at the core strengths of how the >> operating system was built for server operations. >> >> Probably one has to start with the assumption that it is somehow >> extremely good and try your best to prove it. >> >> One example I could give as to why I am keen on VMS is something about >> the OS learning about exeutable images to make the startup fast. >> >> Then coming to teh user accounts there is something abour working sets >> for tuning and these were advatages when you were talking about 32 MB of >> memory or 64 MB of memory >> for large no of users rather than 32 GB or 64 GB for few uers ( I have 3= 2 >> GB on my Windows PC just for myself) >> >> Then there will be more. >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clift >> wrote: >> >>> On 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom Lane wrote: >>> > Bruce Momjian writes: >>> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote: >>> >>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to eithe= r >>> >>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will. >>> > >>> >> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work anymore >>> >> because of lack of testers: >>> >> >>> https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%40= candle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec7842125fb8ae200b6da >>> > >>> > I doubt we ever had a working VMS port. There are precisely zero >>> > references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never one >>> > that got removed. It's barely possible that PG "just worked" without >>> > any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find >>> > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list >>> > archives either. >>> >>> As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced >>> their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went >>> and created an account on their system to investigate. VAX VMX being >>> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before >>> learning *nix. ;) >>> >>> Anyway, it went... poorly. Their system is so crap that users can only >>> have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user >>> passwords: >>> >>> $#@!%*& >>> >>> Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually >>> cause the user login to fail. >>> >>> When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told >>> me it's not a bug and it working as intended. >>> >>> So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly >>> recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them. >>> >>> Regards and best wishes, >>> >>> Justin Clift >>> >> --000000000000b305c8062d3cce83 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was a book called Thriving on Chaos around eighties = or nineties which took VMS as an example of Technology Industry Leaderhsip= =C2=A0and said their technology=C2=A0 leadership might=C2=A0
be taken f= or granted=C2=A0 for only 18 months by which time Competitors could probabl= y catch up.

But then I had said that VMS seems to = have become a small userbase=C2=A0operating system not for competitors=C2= =A0catching up but sudden boom for small servers where everyone went for Un= ix
so I felt that it might be worth=C2=A0 taking a relook again f= or postgresql and python and combination.

On Mon= , Feb 3, 2025 at 6:34=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa <vish.penmetsa@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyway probably = it might be good for postgres hackers to go thru some strengths of VMS with= an R&D Engineer rather than my speaking - I also worked in presales an= d I am not an R&D Engineer so...

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM = Vish Penmetsa <vish.penmetsa@gmail.com> wrote:
Unix is a programmer's oper= ating system and obviously programmes like it.

About VMS= there is a bit of history that Bill Gates from Microsft=C2=A0had hired Bil= l Cutler from the VMS Team to build Windows operating system.
And obviously at that time the focus was more on Windows interf= aces rather than the VMS like OS which was more of a server.

=
And when it comes to PostgreSQl whe will be really loking=C2=A0a= t the server side of things rather than it's user interface capabilitie= s where one migth=C2=A0Windows to be far more=C2=A0
useful and ea= sy.

DEC had lost of the following Industry leading= Advantages - DECNet -> TCP/IP
OSF - Linux
Alpha arc= hitecture - Everyone caught up with 64 bit chips while DEC Alpha was the fi= rst 64 bit chip.
Cluster Architecture -> Oracle & RAC &= ; Unix

And in all these we have'n t looked at = the core strengths of how the operating system was built for server operati= ons.

Probably one has to start with the assumption= that it is somehow extremely good and try your best to prove it.

One example I could give as to why I am keen on VMS is some= thing about the OS learning about exeutable images to make the startup fast= .

Then coming to teh=C2=A0user accounts there is s= omething abour=C2=A0working sets for tuning and these were advatages when y= ou were talking about 32 MB of memory or 64 MB of memory=C2=A0
fo= r large no of users rather than 32 GB or 64 GB for few uers=C2=A0( I have 3= 2 GB on my Windows PC just for myself)

Then there = will be more.=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clif= t <justin@pos= tgresql.org> wrote:
On 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote:=
>>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to = either
>>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will.
>
>> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work any= more
>> because of lack of testers:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.postgresql.org= /message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%40candle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec= 7842125fb8ae200b6da
>
> I doubt we ever had a working VMS port.=C2=A0 There are precisely zero=
> references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never one<= br> > that got removed.=C2=A0 It's barely possible that PG "just wo= rked" without
> any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list
> archives either.

As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced
their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went
and created an account on their system to investigate.=C2=A0 VAX VMX being<= br> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before
learning *nix. ;)

Anyway, it went... poorly.=C2=A0 Their system is so crap that users can onl= y
have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user <= br> passwords:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0$#@!%*&

Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually
cause the user login to fail.

When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told
me it's not a bug=C2=A0and it working as intended.

So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly
recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift
--000000000000b305c8062d3cce83--