Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tew8Z-00GUKO-3n for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:05:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tew8X-00DkI9-Ju for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:05:13 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tew8X-00DkHa-8C for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:05:13 +0000 Received: from mail-pj1-x1033.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1tew8U-002x02-0W for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 13:05:12 +0000 Received: by mail-pj1-x1033.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2ee397a82f6so7264536a91.2 for ; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 05:05:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1738587909; x=1739192709; darn=lists.postgresql.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+uxuCbud5NccUbZkLA5FcCb2qXWMDEWlhsh7CdwQz0A=; b=Jt4dYJZhKH+tOzj3iIOj1+TisEt2WmCpxRko+kFmNjWEeCfEvO6PgWJHf8lrRel+AI zbFHPP8F5Qc8/HYuK8ml3F5nII4PSjmyptXbExqRvBecZ2tMa8ZTekspFyjjIZMPcH4G MB0+qN/YAm25obZcmLhLvm6R3myxaIolFcuy+1vpmI7pBoXVR00q6B8McXT/t6UjIXq7 D51XHEPZKlmwlrJxadF/wmGrF+is9q0GdSwIOLcIBue4A8xvP3CF/n3Ii0oZSyYoUODO AQU7cfnGKjJDBX/6IL0fiaWvHHLO9FWSKPyzS2jIUXNy3iD/B0bnAbEs4+2nk4JUFiVu 2asA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1738587909; x=1739192709; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=+uxuCbud5NccUbZkLA5FcCb2qXWMDEWlhsh7CdwQz0A=; b=Lx7074klcy4b5H08nZxdtwEN5cc3brqgwQM2jdIBDQspsoSFT6Am5ab6YlI6OyPqgR jV5U+PJDR8D0N2Hoh4bkKw4n1gG1FVefEEyZ87TYC+SZTi8TQCXp7W2ItDEIq59HcAjT rivAhGqRsNtIa3roKnISqAUZEq1SZpflDMss3gCdrttoLtjLYLpJiirc4WdBombfSJJM zNwDwoV1PTZ+udK6khyTT74/m3aKdyGz0WxhBKzIAMjS7jTgiFUEWOYXfLO0VoGDXeTI Kq892z6iSsLhEWhMT5nQbuvIxLcLyk03ELrMpebCOuUHVxy2mbw4S76pb8B7/iyaoUdA 0y7Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWzzjvNef3YMv/COvMbBPyBrOLEfM8DqmBLa1Jr1NqdyzY+xOqvj0gYI4Q2lPXduEOhEj6r5YpUmUPrTc9+Vg==@lists.postgresql.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCzalwSWOuf94ByfeyVEMtbzFofD2A1iuQL3ZRgZBRZus44BRl ig9mezDAnXS1LfUt0QjoyqnQl5i6vvvj2X8qObljD9YbYwyp6qLuWSyf9OP8Be2yHFDHVL/p1LU jCJGeWQRGBCbM0BQ8jlaE61izOpU= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsWotc3ZBFMsM2ih8k6qrIV/BsY1KmBhUGmq6tgaBx460Z5sQlSo9byq4Juzin TD9+8Iuw8Np6Ts6Ba3S72kvtKGE4S5I/lUKUFwcPLCp2kxP62yHlMHUcE8A09HtO5cQ3QD9jfs0 f6xnxd9KOfS88a70qliAA/LBKQY0jpdCs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFDR1zdKJoYqOuYtI4pnZrUG+Jrx+A+ognhsPtwxoZVpWoV9aSqhvW33UG0qlh1E412ScEDFXT0Idki1ldZak4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:928d:b0:727:3b77:4174 with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-72fd0c7f7bfmr33247631b3a.23.1738587909209; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 05:05:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <551181.1737756577@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49df303f741ce4a12a4ab757742eed0e@postgresql.org> In-Reply-To: From: Vish Penmetsa Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2025 18:34:56 +0530 X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZnAMUBdmKnQQ82Dky5XHdsc75lZbeu2HKqDiRKrudemEGn2qp9us82HSJU Message-ID: Subject: Re: PostgreSql and VMS operating System To: Justin Clift Cc: Tom Lane , Bruce Momjian , Christophe Pettus , Daniel Gustafsson , pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd45db062d3c8a39" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --000000000000bd45db062d3c8a39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyway probably it might be good for postgres hackers to go thru some strengths of VMS with an R&D Engineer rather than my speaking - I also worked in presales and I am not an R&D Engineer so... On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa wrote: > Unix is a programmer's operating system and obviously programmes like it. > > About VMS there is a bit of history that Bill Gates from Microsft had > hired Bill Cutler from the VMS Team to build Windows operating system. > > And obviously at that time the focus was more on Windows interfaces rathe= r > than the VMS like OS which was more of a server. > > And when it comes to PostgreSQl whe will be really loking at the server > side of things rather than it's user interface capabilities where one > migth Windows to be far more > useful and easy. > > DEC had lost of the following Industry leading Advantages - DECNet -> > TCP/IP > OSF - Linux > Alpha architecture - Everyone caught up with 64 bit chips while DEC Alpha > was the first 64 bit chip. > Cluster Architecture -> Oracle & RAC & Unix > > And in all these we have'n t looked at the core strengths of how the > operating system was built for server operations. > > Probably one has to start with the assumption that it is somehow extremel= y > good and try your best to prove it. > > One example I could give as to why I am keen on VMS is something about th= e > OS learning about exeutable images to make the startup fast. > > Then coming to teh user accounts there is something abour working sets fo= r > tuning and these were advatages when you were talking about 32 MB of memo= ry > or 64 MB of memory > for large no of users rather than 32 GB or 64 GB for few uers ( I have 32 > GB on my Windows PC just for myself) > > Then there will be more. > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clift wrote: > >> On 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom Lane wrote: >> > Bruce Momjian writes: >> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote: >> >>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to either >> >>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will. >> > >> >> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work anymore >> >> because of lack of testers: >> >> >> https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%40c= andle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec7842125fb8ae200b6da >> > >> > I doubt we ever had a working VMS port. There are precisely zero >> > references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never one >> > that got removed. It's barely possible that PG "just worked" without >> > any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find >> > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list >> > archives either. >> >> As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced >> their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went >> and created an account on their system to investigate. VAX VMX being >> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before >> learning *nix. ;) >> >> Anyway, it went... poorly. Their system is so crap that users can only >> have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user >> passwords: >> >> $#@!%*& >> >> Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually >> cause the user login to fail. >> >> When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told >> me it's not a bug and it working as intended. >> >> So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly >> recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them. >> >> Regards and best wishes, >> >> Justin Clift >> > --000000000000bd45db062d3c8a39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyway probably it might be good for postgres hackers to g= o thru some strengths of VMS with an R&D Engineer rather than my speaki= ng - I also worked in presales and I am not an R&D Engineer so...
=
On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa <vish.penmetsa@gmail.com> wr= ote:
Unix is a programmer's operating system and obviously programmes = like it.

About VMS there is a bit of history that Bill G= ates from Microsft=C2=A0had hired Bill Cutler from the VMS Team to build Wi= ndows operating system.

And obviously at that time= the focus was more on Windows interfaces rather than the VMS like OS which= was more of a server.

And when it comes to Postgr= eSQl whe will be really loking=C2=A0at the server side of things rather tha= n it's user interface capabilities where one migth=C2=A0Windows to be f= ar more=C2=A0
useful and easy.

DEC had l= ost of the following Industry leading Advantages - DECNet -> TCP/IP
OSF - Linux
Alpha architecture - Everyone caught up with 64= bit chips while DEC Alpha was the first 64 bit chip.
Cluster Arc= hitecture -> Oracle & RAC & Unix

And in= all these we have'n t looked at the core strengths of how the operatin= g system was built for server operations.

Probably= one has to start with the assumption that it is somehow extremely good and= try your best to prove it.

One example I could gi= ve as to why I am keen on VMS is something about the OS learning about exeu= table images to make the startup fast.

Then coming= to teh=C2=A0user accounts there is something abour=C2=A0working sets for t= uning and these were advatages when you were talking about 32 MB of memory = or 64 MB of memory=C2=A0
for large no of users rather than 32 GB = or 64 GB for few uers=C2=A0( I have 32 GB on my Windows PC just for myself)=

Then there will be more.=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 3= , 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote:
On 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom La= ne wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote:=
>>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to = either
>>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will.
>
>> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work any= more
>> because of lack of testers:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.postgresql.org= /message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%40candle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec= 7842125fb8ae200b6da
>
> I doubt we ever had a working VMS port.=C2=A0 There are precisely zero=
> references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never one<= br> > that got removed.=C2=A0 It's barely possible that PG "just wo= rked" without
> any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list
> archives either.

As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced
their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went
and created an account on their system to investigate.=C2=A0 VAX VMX being<= br> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before
learning *nix. ;)

Anyway, it went... poorly.=C2=A0 Their system is so crap that users can onl= y
have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user <= br> passwords:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0$#@!%*&

Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually
cause the user login to fail.

When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told
me it's not a bug=C2=A0and it working as intended.

So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly
recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift
--000000000000bd45db062d3c8a39--