Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tf7gu-00HTXp-HV for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 01:25:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tf7gs-000ED3-PQ for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 01:25:26 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1tf7gs-000ECu-A0 for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 01:25:26 +0000 Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1tf7gp-0032Ii-1K for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 04 Feb 2025 01:25:25 +0000 Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2f4448bf96fso6375855a91.0 for ; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 17:25:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1738632323; x=1739237123; darn=lists.postgresql.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0oRXsSTmVV7gJyjQatxK9FHn80sP5dchftoO3lFwzH8=; b=ljfVAuzfIY9Kxy4pBt25fccQmEhpvUwVIqLjMYomxPjwh3SPZM5CclOHS7toLCSTWi 0QQnNvKhErJ3kH77Djkd/ZiWVnLhagyXXUU5sMYlBVjRDazdjI3h5beADAYOPg3KqC8z 7hUgD9Dv98pkP6/xU5Z4uY5M7vBYcDyh50qBWkUku/oj9v2V6wzhi4ZEV0CG6Yzh8QMr KVfbD2FZ2qKXpKRSuU/BUbgdhiw1DQ3INb42WiTawAC1eKVG+QKiGkPL8736N0o3hPV0 fjZq9FNEH2QbQjn5ubZHsv3A+9WeoRnjNLBztAOfXFz5j8z8Nw/AC6PZifzKAxZVXgcD A2Cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1738632323; x=1739237123; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=0oRXsSTmVV7gJyjQatxK9FHn80sP5dchftoO3lFwzH8=; b=PTOMAV+uj9bGpYxQGqVtyXy6kmOIdUU8uEvNaDgG9iuUn0MyDKlZeV6aL6YoEmcwB/ cBGlkcJ5PZqVrnrAetOqm7akNsjM2pk825G0OKCg7mcKzBM3gU+ULT8Ep3fdjjMDHlrM 7RfM4FffWQsZIRQd7sL0d+e1yykdml7zQzlVXhYZF4/EC5G6wwDIkdGKlBs/6syPjjnT sQ4nGdHBn5/CBV3CYkXMgd3q8uMJEiqVTzNp0KXSxLcgEfsby3PzLJVxaBhMbxVdGLG/ 2w/U6q+2f7u9J4ki1OMXaiY4WZJlDA5wQzi6BbgSt772/5YVSbQ6fnRkhlqsumXKr+iB ttqQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVM07K3/zvxOFa+dnclBB4ZZdrskuS3jaR0wtYxOpjgRfmCtSy4EtV8xZSzJ6NRxDiLAXlX5gooSBAprS0Njw==@lists.postgresql.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxjV8sM86K7C3ig0X7UMDsjQbyQBI0O1a8V+u8pJN5zaW5uiMM+ HRzrTUji8NWd4rPHnTOlICb5Wkxb1Vjh1LExp2sfSDL5Izwv1Xc9GI4aSsGtKcJbVEVUNbCK0F1 jiNqNywclx0pCY/sDRrREO8wUZxY= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvM/eK8hxXK1XeBJrTwXfQ/8i9bZkfrpuXXpPC0fk1ux4aAzEj+XUUeWYniW29 Q7CZgVInx/Iso4RgwxNC8FBPwOqVoSOmTd6bxU2M6khvOdVqra+XJCuBIM9+sJ3gjvJlJZPxm5K UWx0uYoNG+epNE6oeY2DUIbshYOaq9VQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG4J5w6OfeL8Krot9NemKi4K4DbQh1chgy9DJPoL8WglxFYlNMhEc1pCdm3i/GLsuvuR1EB5gDoXHOdcDpm8PE= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9306:0:b0:728:ac38:4bee with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-72fd0bc7bb2mr33181592b3a.2.1738632322621; Mon, 03 Feb 2025 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <551181.1737756577@sss.pgh.pa.us> <49df303f741ce4a12a4ab757742eed0e@postgresql.org> In-Reply-To: From: Vish Penmetsa Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2025 06:55:11 +0530 X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZl7A71r1ktZgmsLso8L2kC_UoIDmdJPZebA7vL2_x3xIxBQuq7YJtqiaIk Message-ID: Subject: Re: PostgreSql and VMS operating System To: Justin Clift Cc: Tom Lane , Bruce Momjian , Christophe Pettus , Daniel Gustafsson , pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fc28f4062d46e146" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --000000000000fc28f4062d46e146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also need to mention that When DEC Alpha servers were released we could see their performance advantages ( amazing speeds) while setting up demo's etc but VMS was still running on VAX architecture. By the time VMS was ported onto 64 bit Alpha most people would have seen Unix speed on 64 bit architecture and probably it was difficult to convince prospects about advantages of VMS operating System. On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:53=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa wrote: > There was a book called Thriving on Chaos around eighties or nineties > which took VMS as an example of Technology Industry Leaderhsip and said > their technology leadership might > be taken for granted for only 18 months by which time Competitors could > probably catch up. > > But then I had said that VMS seems to have become a small > userbase operating system not for competitors catching up but sudden boom > for small servers where everyone went for Unix > so I felt that it might be worth taking a relook again for postgresql an= d > python and combination. > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:34=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa > wrote: > >> Anyway probably it might be good for postgres hackers to go thru some >> strengths of VMS with an R&D Engineer rather than my speaking - I also >> worked in presales and I am not an R&D Engineer so... >> >> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa >> wrote: >> >>> Unix is a programmer's operating system and obviously programmes like i= t. >>> >>> About VMS there is a bit of history that Bill Gates from Microsft had >>> hired Bill Cutler from the VMS Team to build Windows operating system. >>> >>> And obviously at that time the focus was more on Windows interfaces >>> rather than the VMS like OS which was more of a server. >>> >>> And when it comes to PostgreSQl whe will be really loking at the server >>> side of things rather than it's user interface capabilities where one >>> migth Windows to be far more >>> useful and easy. >>> >>> DEC had lost of the following Industry leading Advantages - DECNet -> >>> TCP/IP >>> OSF - Linux >>> Alpha architecture - Everyone caught up with 64 bit chips while DEC >>> Alpha was the first 64 bit chip. >>> Cluster Architecture -> Oracle & RAC & Unix >>> >>> And in all these we have'n t looked at the core strengths of how the >>> operating system was built for server operations. >>> >>> Probably one has to start with the assumption that it is somehow >>> extremely good and try your best to prove it. >>> >>> One example I could give as to why I am keen on VMS is something about >>> the OS learning about exeutable images to make the startup fast. >>> >>> Then coming to teh user accounts there is something abour working sets >>> for tuning and these were advatages when you were talking about 32 MB o= f >>> memory or 64 MB of memory >>> for large no of users rather than 32 GB or 64 GB for few uers ( I have >>> 32 GB on my Windows PC just for myself) >>> >>> Then there will be more. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clift >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom Lane wrote: >>>> > Bruce Momjian writes: >>>> >> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote: >>>> >>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to >>>> either >>>> >>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will. >>>> > >>>> >> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work anymore >>>> >> because of lack of testers: >>>> >> >>>> https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%4= 0candle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec7842125fb8ae200b6da >>>> > >>>> > I doubt we ever had a working VMS port. There are precisely zero >>>> > references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never on= e >>>> > that got removed. It's barely possible that PG "just worked" withou= t >>>> > any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find >>>> > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list >>>> > archives either. >>>> >>>> As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced >>>> their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went >>>> and created an account on their system to investigate. VAX VMX being >>>> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before >>>> learning *nix. ;) >>>> >>>> Anyway, it went... poorly. Their system is so crap that users can onl= y >>>> have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user >>>> passwords: >>>> >>>> $#@!%*& >>>> >>>> Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually >>>> cause the user login to fail. >>>> >>>> When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told >>>> me it's not a bug and it working as intended. >>>> >>>> So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly >>>> recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them. >>>> >>>> Regards and best wishes, >>>> >>>> Justin Clift >>>> >>> --000000000000fc28f4062d46e146 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I also need to mention that When DEC Alpha servers were re= leased we could see their=C2=A0performance advantages ( amazing speeds) whi= le setting up demo's etc
but VMS was still running on VAX architect= ure. By the time VMS was ported onto 64 bit=C2=A0Alpha most people would=C2= =A0have seen Unix speed on 64 bit architecture and probably it was difficul= t to convince prospects about advantages of VMS operating System.

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:53=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa <= vish.penmetsa@gmail.com> = wrote:
There was a book called Thriving on Chaos around eighties or ninet= ies which took VMS as an example of Technology Industry Leaderhsip=C2=A0and= said their technology=C2=A0 leadership might=C2=A0
be taken for grante= d=C2=A0 for only 18 months by which time Competitors could probably catch u= p.

But then I had said that VMS seems to have beco= me a small userbase=C2=A0operating system not for competitors=C2=A0catching= up but sudden boom for small servers where everyone went for Unix
so I felt that it might be worth=C2=A0 taking a relook again for postgres= ql and python and combination.

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 6:34=E2=80=AFPM = Vish Penmetsa <vish.penmetsa@gmail.com> wrote:
Anyway probably it might be goo= d for postgres hackers to go thru some strengths of VMS with an R&D Eng= ineer rather than my speaking - I also worked in presales and I am not an R= &D Engineer so...

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 5:17=E2=80=AFPM Vish Penmetsa &= lt;vish.penmet= sa@gmail.com> wrote:
Unix is a programmer's operating system an= d obviously programmes like it.

About VMS there is a bit= of history that Bill Gates from Microsft=C2=A0had hired Bill Cutler from t= he VMS Team to build Windows operating system.

And= obviously at that time the focus was more on Windows interfaces rather tha= n the VMS like OS which was more of a server.

And = when it comes to PostgreSQl whe will be really loking=C2=A0at the server si= de of things rather than it's user interface capabilities where one mig= th=C2=A0Windows to be far more=C2=A0
useful and easy.
<= br>
DEC had lost of the following Industry leading Advantages - D= ECNet -> TCP/IP
OSF - Linux
Alpha architecture - Eve= ryone caught up with 64 bit chips while DEC Alpha was the first 64 bit chip= .
Cluster Architecture -> Oracle & RAC & Unix

And in all these we have'n t looked at the core streng= ths of how the operating system was built for server operations.
=
Probably one has to start with the assumption that it is som= ehow extremely good and try your best to prove it.

One example I could give as to why I am keen on VMS is something about the= OS learning about exeutable images to make the startup fast.
Then coming to teh=C2=A0user accounts there is something abour= =C2=A0working sets for tuning and these were advatages when you were talkin= g about 32 MB of memory or 64 MB of memory=C2=A0
for large no of = users rather than 32 GB or 64 GB for few uers=C2=A0( I have 32 GB on my Win= dows PC just for myself)

Then there will be more.= =C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 3, 2025 at 3:54=E2=80=AFPM Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> wrote:
On= 2025-01-25 08:09, Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 01:07:56AM -0800, Christophe Pettus wrote:=
>>> So, basically, if you want a maintained VMS port, you need to = either
>>> drive the project yourself, or find others who will.
>
>> This email thread from 2003 says VMS probably doesn't work any= more
>> because of lack of testers:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.postgresql.org= /message-id/flat/200301071531.h07FVWI08147%40candle.pha.pa.us#0dbc1439f51ec= 7842125fb8ae200b6da
>
> I doubt we ever had a working VMS port.=C2=A0 There are precisely zero=
> references to VMS in our commit log, so certainly there was never one<= br> > that got removed.=C2=A0 It's barely possible that PG "just wo= rked" without
> any patches under their POSIX emulation layer, but I could not find > any indication of successful users of PG-on-VMS in the mail list
> archives either.

As a data point, when the recent incarnation of VMS Software announced
their intention to allow Community sign ups a few years ago, I went
and created an account on their system to investigate.=C2=A0 VAX VMX being<= br> one of the first multi-user systems I learned back in the day, before
learning *nix. ;)

Anyway, it went... poorly.=C2=A0 Their system is so crap that users can onl= y
have a very specific set of "special" characters allowedin user <= br> passwords:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0$#@!%*&

Any other symbols are accepted at password setting time, but actually
cause the user login to fail.

When I attempted to file a bug about this problem, they literally told
me it's not a bug=C2=A0and it working as intended.

So frankly, VMS Software are so completely clueless that I strongly
recommend no-one waste their time and effort on them.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift
--000000000000fc28f4062d46e146--