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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Outline for PostgreSQL book
To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
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Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book.  Many of us
have been asked by publishers about writing a book.  Here is what I
think would be a good outline for the book.

I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book,
how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing
documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.

Any comments would be welcome.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
...................................................................

The attached document is in both web page and text formats.
View the one which looks best.


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originally by Nikos Drakos (nikos@cbl.leeds.ac.uk), CBLU, University of Leeds
* revised and updated by:  Marcus Hennecke, Ross Moore, Herb Swan
* with significant contributions from:
  Jens Lippmann, Marek Rouchal, Martin Wilck and others -->
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<TITLE>PostgreSQL Book Proposal</TITLE>
<META NAME="description" CONTENT="PostgreSQL Book Proposal">
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<P>

<P>

<P>
<H1 ALIGN="CENTER">PostgreSQL Book Proposal</H1>
<P ALIGN="CENTER"><STRONG>Bruce Momjian</STRONG></P>
<P ALIGN="LEFT"></P>

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>1.
<DD>Introduction
<DT>2.
<DD>Installation
<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Getting P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL
<DT>(b)
<DD>Compiling
<DT>(c)
<DD>Initialization
<DT>(d)
<DD>Starting the server
<DT>(e)
<DD>Creating a database
<DT>(f)
<DD>Issuing database commands 
</DL><DT>3.
<DD>Introduction to SQL

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Why a database?
<DT>(b)
<DD>Creating tables 
<DT>(c)
<DD>Adding data with I<SMALL>NSERT</SMALL>
<DT>(d)
<DD>Viewing data with S<SMALL>ELECT</SMALL>
<DT>(e)
<DD>Removing data with D<SMALL>ELETE</SMALL>
<DT>(f)
<DD>Modifying data with U<SMALL>PDATE</SMALL>
<DT>(g)
<DD>Restriction with W<SMALL>HERE</SMALL>
<DT>(h)
<DD>Sorting data with O<SMALL>RDER </SMALL>B<SMALL>Y</SMALL>
<DT>(i)
<DD>Usage of N<SMALL>ULL</SMALL> values
</DL><DT>4.
<DD>Advanced SQL Commands

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Inserting data from a S<SMALL>ELECT</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Aggregates: C<SMALL>OUNT, </SMALL>S<SMALL>UM,</SMALL> etc.
<DT>(c)
<DD>G<SMALL>ROUP </SMALL>B<SMALL>Y</SMALL> with aggregates
<DT>(d)
<DD>H<SMALL>AVING</SMALL> with aggregates
<DT>(e)
<DD>Joining tables
<DT>(f)
<DD>Using table aliases
<DT>(g)
<DD>U<SMALL>NION</SMALL> clause
<DT>(h)
<DD>Subqueries
<DT>(i)
<DD>Transactions
<DT>(j)
<DD>Cursors
<DT>(k)
<DD>Indexing
<DT>(l)
<DD>Table defaults
<DT>(m)
<DD>Primary/Foreign keys
<DT>(n)
<DD>A<SMALL>ND/</SMALL>O<SMALL>R</SMALL> usage 
<DT>(o)
<DD>L<SMALL>IKE</SMALL> clause usage
<DT>(p)
<DD>Temporary tables
<DT>(q)
<DD>Importing data
</DL><DT>5.
<DD>P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL'<SMALL>S</SMALL> Unique Features

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Object <SMALL>ID'S</SMALL> (<SMALL>OID)</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Multi-version Concurrency Control (<SMALL>MVCC)</SMALL>
<DT>(c)
<DD>Locking and Deadlocks
<DT>(d)
<DD>Vacuum
<DT>(e)
<DD>Views
<DT>(f)
<DD>Rules
<DT>(g)
<DD>Sequences
<DT>(h)
<DD>Triggers
<DT>(i)
<DD>Large Objects(<SMALL>BLOBS</SMALL>)
<DT>(j)
<DD>Adding User-defined Functions
<DT>(k)
<DD>Adding User-defined Operators
<DT>(l)
<DD>Adding User-defined Types
<DT>(m)
<DD>Exotic Preinstalled Types
<DT>(n)
<DD>Arrays
<DT>(o)
<DD>Inheritance
</DL><DT>6.
<DD>Interfacing to the P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL Database

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>C Language API
<DT>(b)
<DD>Embedded C
<DT>(c)
<DD>C++
<DT>(d)
<DD>J<SMALL>AVA</SMALL>
<DT>(e)
<DD>ODBC
<DT>(f)
<DD>P<SMALL>ERL</SMALL>
<DT>(g)
<DD>T<SMALL>CL/</SMALL>T<SMALL>K</SMALL>
<DT>(h)
<DD>P<SMALL>YTHON</SMALL>
<DT>(i)
<DD>Web access (<SMALL>PHP</SMALL>)
<DT>(j)
<DD>Server-side programming (<SMALL>PLPGSQL</SMALL> and <SMALL>SPI)</SMALL>
</DL><DT>7.
<DD>P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL Adminstration

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Creating users and databases
<DT>(b)
<DD>Backup and restore
<DT>(c)
<DD>Performance tuning
<DT>(d)
<DD>Troubleshooting
<DT>(e)
<DD>Customization options
<DT>(f)
<DD>Setting access permissions
</DL><DT>8.
<DD>Additional Resources

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Frequently Asked Questions (<SMALL>FAQ'S)</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Mailing list support
<DT>(c)
<DD>Supplied documentation
<DT>(d)
<DD>Commercial support
<DT>(e)
<DD>Modifying the source code
</DL></DL>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--ELM939748595-29371-0_
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Content-Disposition: inline; filename="/tmp/book.txt"
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                          PostgreSQL Book Proposal
                                      
                               Bruce Momjian
   
   1.
          Introduction
   2.
          Installation
        (a)
               Getting POSTGRESQL
        (b)
               Compiling
        (c)
               Initialization
        (d)
               Starting the server
        (e)
               Creating a database
        (f)
               Issuing database commands
   3.
          Introduction to SQL
        (a)
               Why a database?
        (b)
               Creating tables
        (c)
               Adding data with INSERT
        (d)
               Viewing data with SELECT
        (e)
               Removing data with DELETE
        (f)
               Modifying data with UPDATE
        (g)
               Restriction with WHERE
        (h)
               Sorting data with ORDER BY
        (i)
               Usage of NULL values
   4.
          Advanced SQL Commands
        (a)
               Inserting data from a SELECT
        (b)
               Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc.
        (c)
               GROUP BY with aggregates
        (d)
               HAVING with aggregates
        (e)
               Joining tables
        (f)
               Using table aliases
        (g)
               UNION clause
        (h)
               Subqueries
        (i)
               Transactions
        (j)
               Cursors
        (k)
               Indexing
        (l)
               Table defaults
        (m)
               Primary/Foreign keys
        (n)
               AND/OR usage
        (o)
               LIKE clause usage
        (p)
               Temporary tables
        (q)
               Importing data
   5.
          POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
        (a)
               Object ID'S (OID)
        (b)
               Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC)
        (c)
               Locking and Deadlocks
        (d)
               Vacuum
        (e)
               Views
        (f)
               Rules
        (g)
               Sequences
        (h)
               Triggers
        (i)
               Large Objects(BLOBS)
        (j)
               Adding User-defined Functions
        (k)
               Adding User-defined Operators
        (l)
               Adding User-defined Types
        (m)
               Exotic Preinstalled Types
        (n)
               Arrays
        (o)
               Inheritance
   6.
          Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
        (a)
               C Language API
        (b)
               Embedded C
        (c)
               C++
        (d)
               JAVA
        (e)
               ODBC
        (f)
               PERL
        (g)
               TCL/TK
        (h)
               PYTHON
        (i)
               Web access (PHP)
        (j)
               Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
   7.
          POSTGRESQL Adminstration
        (a)
               Creating users and databases
        (b)
               Backup and restore
        (c)
               Performance tuning
        (d)
               Troubleshooting
        (e)
               Customization options
        (f)
               Setting access permissions
   8.
          Additional Resources
        (a)
               Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
        (b)
               Mailing list support
        (c)
               Supplied documentation
        (d)
               Commercial support
        (e)
               Modifying the source code

--ELM939748595-29371-0_


--ELM939748595-29371-0_--



From olly@lfix.co.uk Tue Oct  12 20:50:44 1999
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book 
In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> of "Tue,
	12 Oct 1999 13:16:35 EDT." <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:49:55 +0100
From: "Oliver Elphick" <olly@lfix.co.uk>

Bruce Momjian wrote:
  >Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book.  Many of us
  >have been asked by publishers about writing a book.  Here is what I
  >think would be a good outline for the book.
  >
  >I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book,
  >how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing
  >documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
  >
  >Any comments would be welcome.
 


  >                          PostgreSQL Book Proposal
  >                                      
  >                               Bruce Momjian
  >   
  >   1.
  >          Introduction
  >   2.
  >          Installation
...
  >   3.
  >          Introduction to SQL
...

It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.

I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).

Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
it.

-- 
      Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/
                 ========================================
Oliver Elphick                                Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
Isle of Wight                              http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
               PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1
                 ========================================
     "Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, 
      who does not look to the proud, to those who turn 
      aside to false gods."            Psalms 40:4 





From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Tue Oct  12 20:56:24 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910122056.QAA09210@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910122049.VAA04297@linda.lfix.co.uk> from Oliver Elphick at
	"Oct 12, 1999 09:49:55 pm"
To: Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
> 
> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).

> 
> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
> it.

Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
to be a mess to look at.

New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
...................................................................

The attached document is in both web page and text formats.
View the one which looks best.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">
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originally by Nikos Drakos (nikos@cbl.leeds.ac.uk), CBLU, University of Leeds
* revised and updated by:  Marcus Hennecke, Ross Moore, Herb Swan
* with significant contributions from:
  Jens Lippmann, Marek Rouchal, Martin Wilck and others -->
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>PostgreSQL Book Proposal</TITLE>
<META NAME="description" CONTENT="PostgreSQL Book Proposal">
<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="9162">
<META NAME="resource-type" CONTENT="document">
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</HEAD>
<BODY >

<P>

<P>

<P>
<H1 ALIGN="CENTER">PostgreSQL Book Proposal</H1>
<P ALIGN="CENTER"><STRONG>Bruce Momjian</STRONG></P>
<P ALIGN="LEFT"></P>

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>1.
<DD>Introduction
<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>History of P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL
<DT>(b)
<DD>Open source software
<DT>(c)
<DD>When to use a database
</DL><DT>2.
<DD>Issuing database commands

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Starting a database session
<DT>(b)
<DD>Controlling a session
<DT>(c)
<DD>Sending queries
<DT>(d)
<DD>Getting help
</DL><DT>3.
<DD>Introduction to SQL

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Creating tables 
<DT>(b)
<DD>Adding data with I<SMALL>NSERT</SMALL>
<DT>(c)
<DD>Viewing data with S<SMALL>ELECT</SMALL>
<DT>(d)
<DD>Removing data with D<SMALL>ELETE</SMALL>
<DT>(e)
<DD>Modifying data with U<SMALL>PDATE</SMALL>
<DT>(f)
<DD>Restricting with W<SMALL>HERE</SMALL>
<DT>(g)
<DD>Sorting data with O<SMALL>RDER </SMALL>B<SMALL>Y</SMALL>
<DT>(h)
<DD>Using N<SMALL>ULL</SMALL> values
</DL><DT>4.
<DD>Advanced SQL Commands

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Inserting data from a S<SMALL>ELECT</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Aggregates: C<SMALL>OUNT, </SMALL>S<SMALL>UM, ...</SMALL>
<DT>(c)
<DD>G<SMALL>ROUP </SMALL>B<SMALL>Y</SMALL> with aggregates
<DT>(d)
<DD>H<SMALL>AVING</SMALL> with aggregates
<DT>(e)
<DD>Joining tables
<DT>(f)
<DD>Using table aliases
<DT>(g)
<DD>U<SMALL>NION</SMALL> clause
<DT>(h)
<DD>Subqueries
<DT>(i)
<DD>Transactions
<DT>(j)
<DD>Cursors
<DT>(k)
<DD>Indexing
<DT>(l)
<DD>Column defaults
<DT>(m)
<DD>Primary/foreign keys
<DT>(n)
<DD>A<SMALL>ND/</SMALL>O<SMALL>R</SMALL> usage 
<DT>(o)
<DD>L<SMALL>IKE</SMALL> clause usage
<DT>(p)
<DD>Temporary tables
<DT>(q)
<DD>Importing data
</DL><DT>5.
<DD>P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL'<SMALL>S</SMALL> Unique Features

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Object <SMALL>ID'S</SMALL> (<SMALL>OID'S)</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Multi-Version Concurrency Control
<DT>(c)
<DD>Locking and deadlocks
<DT>(d)
<DD>Vacuum
<DT>(e)
<DD>Views
<DT>(f)
<DD>Rules
<DT>(g)
<DD>Sequences
<DT>(h)
<DD>Triggers
<DT>(i)
<DD>Large objects(<SMALL>BLOBS</SMALL>)
<DT>(j)
<DD>Adding user-defined functions
<DT>(k)
<DD>Adding user-defined operators
<DT>(l)
<DD>Adding user-defined types
<DT>(m)
<DD>Exotic pre-installed types
<DT>(n)
<DD>Arrays
<DT>(o)
<DD>Inheritance
</DL><DT>6.
<DD>Interfacing to the P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL Database

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>C Language API
<DT>(b)
<DD>Embedded C
<DT>(c)
<DD>C++
<DT>(d)
<DD>J<SMALL>AVA</SMALL>
<DT>(e)
<DD>ODBC
<DT>(f)
<DD>P<SMALL>ERL</SMALL>
<DT>(g)
<DD>T<SMALL>CL/</SMALL>T<SMALL>K</SMALL>
<DT>(h)
<DD>P<SMALL>YTHON</SMALL>
<DT>(i)
<DD>Web access (<SMALL>PHP</SMALL>)
<DT>(j)
<DD>Server-side programming (<SMALL>PLPGSQL</SMALL> and <SMALL>SPI)</SMALL>
</DL><DT>7.
<DD>P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL Administration

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Creating users and databases
<DT>(b)
<DD>Backup and restore
<DT>(c)
<DD>Performance
<DT>(d)
<DD>Troubleshooting
<DT>(e)
<DD>Customization
<DT>(f)
<DD>Setting access permissions
<DT>(g)
<DD>International character encodings
</DL><DT>8.
<DD>Additional Resources

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Frequently Asked Questions (<SMALL>FAQ'S)</SMALL>
<DT>(b)
<DD>Mailing list support
<DT>(c)
<DD>Supplied documentation
<DT>(d)
<DD>Commercial support
<DT>(e)
<DD>Modifying the source code
</DL><DT>9.
<DD>Appendix: Installation

<P>
<DL COMPACT>
<DT>(a)
<DD>Getting P<SMALL>OSTGRE</SMALL>SQL
<DT>(b)
<DD>Compiling
<DT>(c)
<DD>Initialization
<DT>(d)
<DD>Starting the server
<DT>(e)
<DD>Creating a database
</DL><DT>10.
<DD>Annotated Bibliography
</DL>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>

--ELM939761764-8469-0_
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="/tmp/book.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


                          PostgreSQL Book Proposal
                                      
                               Bruce Momjian
   
   1.
          Introduction
        (a)
               History of POSTGRESQL
        (b)
               Open source software
        (c)
               When to use a database
   2.
          Issuing database commands
        (a)
               Starting a database session
        (b)
               Controlling a session
        (c)
               Sending queries
        (d)
               Getting help
   3.
          Introduction to SQL
        (a)
               Creating tables
        (b)
               Adding data with INSERT
        (c)
               Viewing data with SELECT
        (d)
               Removing data with DELETE
        (e)
               Modifying data with UPDATE
        (f)
               Restricting with WHERE
        (g)
               Sorting data with ORDER BY
        (h)
               Using NULL values
   4.
          Advanced SQL Commands
        (a)
               Inserting data from a SELECT
        (b)
               Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, ...
        (c)
               GROUP BY with aggregates
        (d)
               HAVING with aggregates
        (e)
               Joining tables
        (f)
               Using table aliases
        (g)
               UNION clause
        (h)
               Subqueries
        (i)
               Transactions
        (j)
               Cursors
        (k)
               Indexing
        (l)
               Column defaults
        (m)
               Primary/foreign keys
        (n)
               AND/OR usage
        (o)
               LIKE clause usage
        (p)
               Temporary tables
        (q)
               Importing data
   5.
          POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
        (a)
               Object ID'S (OID'S)
        (b)
               Multi-Version Concurrency Control
        (c)
               Locking and deadlocks
        (d)
               Vacuum
        (e)
               Views
        (f)
               Rules
        (g)
               Sequences
        (h)
               Triggers
        (i)
               Large objects(BLOBS)
        (j)
               Adding user-defined functions
        (k)
               Adding user-defined operators
        (l)
               Adding user-defined types
        (m)
               Exotic pre-installed types
        (n)
               Arrays
        (o)
               Inheritance
   6.
          Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
        (a)
               C Language API
        (b)
               Embedded C
        (c)
               C++
        (d)
               JAVA
        (e)
               ODBC
        (f)
               PERL
        (g)
               TCL/TK
        (h)
               PYTHON
        (i)
               Web access (PHP)
        (j)
               Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
   7.
          POSTGRESQL Administration
        (a)
               Creating users and databases
        (b)
               Backup and restore
        (c)
               Performance
        (d)
               Troubleshooting
        (e)
               Customization
        (f)
               Setting access permissions
        (g)
               International character encodings
   8.
          Additional Resources
        (a)
               Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
        (b)
               Mailing list support
        (c)
               Supplied documentation
        (d)
               Commercial support
        (e)
               Modifying the source code
   9.
          Appendix: Installation
        (a)
               Getting POSTGRESQL
        (b)
               Compiling
        (c)
               Initialization
        (d)
               Starting the server
        (e)
               Creating a database
   10.
          Annotated Bibliography

--ELM939761764-8469-0_


--ELM939761764-8469-0_--



From vev@michvhf.com Tue Oct  12 21:18:11 1999
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From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>


On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
>> 
>> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
>> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
>> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).
> 
>> 
>> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
>> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
>> it.
> 
> Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
> to be a mess to look at.
> 
> New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?

Not at this early stage.  Wait till it's further along.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
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==========================================================================





From bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk Wed Oct  13 17:59:05 1999
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Cc: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Date: 12 Oct 1999 23:08:05 +0100
In-Reply-To: Bruce Momjian's message of "Tue,
 12 Oct 1999 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT)"
Message-ID: <87u2nw8c6x.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
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Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

>                           PostgreSQL Book Proposal
>                                       
>                                Bruce Momjian

[...]

>    4.
>           Advanced SQL Commands

[...]


>    6.
>           Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
>         (a)
>                C Language API
>         (b)
>                Embedded C
>         (c)
>                C++
>         (d)
>                JAVA
>         (e)
>                ODBC
>         (f)
>                PERL
>         (g)
>                TCL/TK
>         (h)
>                PYTHON
>         (i)
>                Web access (PHP)
>         (j)
>                Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)

Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4?  (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL
specific.)  Or am I completely confused?  (Where can I read about
PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?)

If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter
6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for
the latter.  

(Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match
what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but
even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of
a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of
all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.)



From z.nijmeyers@cable.a2000.nl Tue Oct  12 23:22:43 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 01:27:29 +0200
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>,
 Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
From: gravity <z.nijmeyers@cable.a2000.nl>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>
In-Reply-To: <199910122056.QAA09210@candle.pha.pa.us>
References: <199910122049.VAA04297@linda.lfix.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 16:56 12-10-99 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: 
>
> > Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
> > users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
> > it.
> Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
> to be a mess to look at.


I agree on this particular item BUT...

wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book?
there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc.

focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres
is/was developed the way it is/was.

'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would
become another entry-level booklet.

OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
possible.





From gravity@dds.nl Tue Oct  12 23:36:27 1999
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>,
 Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
From: gravity <gravity@dds.nl>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>
In-Reply-To: <199910122056.QAA09210@candle.pha.pa.us>
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At 16:56 12-10-99 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote: 
> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
> it.
Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
to be a mess to look at.

I agree on this particular item BUT...

wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book?
there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc.

focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres
is/was developed the way it is/was.

'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would
become another entry-level booklet.

OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
possible.





From vev@michvhf.com Tue Oct  12 23:56:07 1999
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From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: RE: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>


On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
>> 
>> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
>> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
>> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).
> 
>> 
>> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
>> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
>> it.
> 
> Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
> to be a mess to look at.

It doesn't have to be a mess.  

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================





From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 00:31:15 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910130002.UAA14644@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991013011938.00a80e50@mail.a2000.nl> from gravity at "Oct
	13, 1999 01:27:29 am"
To: gravity <z.nijmeyers@cable.a2000.nl>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:02:35 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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> I agree on this particular item BUT...
> 
> wouldn't it be nice if the book would be a 'hard' book?
> there already are lots of database tutorials, introductions to sql etc.
> 
> focus on db developers, go into (maybe not that deep) how and why postgres
> is/was developed the way it is/was.
> 
> 'hard' books are a 'good thing' (tm) and it would be too bad if this would
> become another entry-level booklet.
> 
> OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
> possible.

Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books.  I think we
need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so
experienced people can skip newbie chapters.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 00:31:22 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910130003.UAA14654@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.991012195611.vev@michvhf.com> from Vince Vielhaber at
 "Oct
	12, 1999 07:56:11 pm"
To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
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> 
> On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
> >> 
> >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
> >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
> >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).
> > 
> >> 
> >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
> >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
> >> it.
> > 
> > Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
> > to be a mess to look at.
> 
> It doesn't have to be a mess.  
> 

Frankly, if I can get away with having whole sections that point to URL
files, so much the better.  If I can just point them to the INSTALL
file, and be done with it, great.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From vev@michvhf.com Wed Oct  13 00:55:55 1999
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Sender: vev@paprika.michvhf.com
From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>


On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> 
>> On 12-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> >> It looks good; I have a comment on the order of chapters, however.
>> >> 
>> >> I suggest that Installlation goes in an Appendix.  More and more, people
>> >> will be coming to machines that already have software installed, or have
>> >> them installed as packages (.rpm or .deb).
>> > 
>> >> 
>> >> Installation is the administrator's job, and not of interest to `normal'
>> >> users, so it should not be placed in the book as if every user had to do
>> >> it.
>> > 
>> > Done.  Certainly better to get that at the end.  That chapter is going
>> > to be a mess to look at.
>> 
>> It doesn't have to be a mess.  
>> 
> 
> Frankly, if I can get away with having whole sections that point to URL
> files, so much the better.  If I can just point them to the INSTALL
> file, and be done with it, great.

The installation can be quick and painless.  I'll explain more tomorrow.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================





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From: wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck)
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
To: maillist@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:15:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: z.nijmeyers@cable.a2000.nl, olly@lfix.co.uk, pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org,
	docs@postgreSQL.org
Reply-To: wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck)
In-Reply-To: <199910130002.UAA14644@candle.pha.pa.us> from "Bruce Momjian" at
	Oct 12, 99 08:02:35 pm
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Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
> > possible.
>
> Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books.  I think we
> need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so
> experienced people can skip newbie chapters.

    I  don't  think it really matters that much if the first book
    about PostgreSQL is more for a newbie than a professional  or
    vice  versa.  What  count's  is  that  it  is  up to date and
    correct. If I go to a book store and find only one book on  a
    topic,  it's  usually  not  the one "I" was looking for.  But
    what would make other authors write another book on the  same
    topic  -  most likely the authors who write details I haven't
    known before? It's the success of the former one.

    Think about it a little.

    The first book has to be  successful.  Therefore  it  has  to
    address  most of the interested people. Those who know how to
    get the information they need out of manpages, RFC's and  W3C
    recommendations  aren't  the ppl who to address in this case.
    So let it please be a newbie book, and  the  hard  ones  will
    follow.

    Another  problem  is  that during the last release cycles, it
    wasn't  that  easy  to  follow  all  the   changes   in   the
    capabilities  of  PostgreSQL.   Not  even for me, and I'm not
    counting myself to the outermost circle.  Now what chance  do
    you  give a book that's written based on v6.5 if we are about
    to release v7.1 some months ahead? And more important, if  it
    happens  this  way,  does our "aggressive" development invite
    other authors to take a chance on the  same  topic?  I  don't
    think so.

    If  we  really  want professional publishing about PostgreSQL
    (we want - no?), the core team has  to  co-operate  with  the
    authors  of  those  books in a way, that they can write their
    book based on the upcoming release and  sell  it  with  a  CD
    where that release is included.  At the time it is published,
    there should only be bugfixes available  on  the  net  -  not
    already two newer releases.


Jan

--

#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#========================================= wieck@debis.com (Jan Wieck) #





From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 02:41:04 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910130236.WAA18587@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <m11bDwZ-0003kLC@orion.SAPserv.Hamburg.dsh.de> from Jan Wieck at
	"Oct 13, 1999 04:15:07 am"
To: Jan Wieck <wieck@debis.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:36:54 -0400 (EDT)
CC: z.nijmeyers@cable.a2000.nl, olly@lfix.co.uk, pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org,
	docs@postgreSQL.org
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> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > > OTOH an entry-level book is probably required to get as big a user-base as
> > > possible.
> >
> > Publishers have already talked to me about multiple books.  I think we
> > need to start with an newbie book, with the chapters clearly arranged so
> > experienced people can skip newbie chapters.
> 
>     I  don't  think it really matters that much if the first book
>     about PostgreSQL is more for a newbie than a professional  or
>     vice  versa.  What  count's  is  that  it  is  up to date and
>     correct. If I go to a book store and find only one book on  a
>     topic,  it's  usually  not  the one "I" was looking for.  But
>     what would make other authors write another book on the  same
>     topic  -  most likely the authors who write details I haven't
>     known before? It's the success of the former one.
> 
>     Think about it a little.
> 
>     The first book has to be  successful.  Therefore  it  has  to
>     address  most of the interested people. Those who know how to
>     get the information they need out of manpages, RFC's and  W3C
>     recommendations  aren't  the ppl who to address in this case.
>     So let it please be a newbie book, and  the  hard  ones  will
>     follow.



That was my thought too.


>     Another  problem  is  that during the last release cycles, it
>     wasn't  that  easy  to  follow  all  the   changes   in   the
>     capabilities  of  PostgreSQL.   Not  even for me, and I'm not
>     counting myself to the outermost circle.  Now what chance  do
>     you  give a book that's written based on v6.5 if we are about
>     to release v7.1 some months ahead? And more important, if  it
>     happens  this  way,  does our "aggressive" development invite
>     other authors to take a chance on the  same  topic?  I  don't
>     think so.
> 
>     If  we  really  want professional publishing about PostgreSQL
>     (we want - no?), the core team has  to  co-operate  with  the
>     authors  of  those  books in a way, that they can write their
>     book based on the upcoming release and  sell  it  with  a  CD
>     where that release is included.  At the time it is published,
>     there should only be bugfixes available  on  the  net  -  not
>     already two newer releases.

I have a list of interested publishers, and am going to post it so
people can get involved and start writing.


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From chai@prima.net.id Wed Oct  13 04:26:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:22:01 +0700
From: Chairudin Sentosa Harjo <chai@prima.net.id>
Reply-To: chai@prima.net.id
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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You should put one special section to talk about DATE. (datetime,
abstime, etc..)
That is the most asked by the mailing list.
You could put tons of samples on how to use and manipulate DATE.
ie. How to get the time, how to get the minute, how to get the hour,
    how to get the month in number (1,2,3,4),
    how to get the month in word (JAN, FEB, MAR)

The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.

Regards,
Chairudin Sentosa

> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book.  Many of us
> have been asked by publishers about writing a book.  Here is what I
> think would be a good outline for the book.
> 
> I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL
> book,
> how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our
> existing
> documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
> 
> Any comments would be welcome.
> 
> --
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
>   maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
> 19026
> ...................................................................
> 
> The attached document is in both web page and text formats.
> View the one which looks best.
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                        PostgreSQL Book Proposal
> 
>                              Bruce Momjian
> 
> 1.   Introduction
> 2.   Installation
> 
>      (a)  Getting POSTGRESQL
>      (b)  Compiling
>      (c)  Initialization
>      (d)  Starting the server
>      (e)  Creating a database
>      (f)  Issuing database commands
> 3.   Introduction to SQL
> 
>      (a)  Why a database?
>      (b)  Creating tables
>      (c)  Adding data with INSERT
>      (d)  Viewing data with SELECT
>      (e)  Removing data with DELETE
>      (f)  Modifying data with UPDATE
>      (g)  Restriction with WHERE
>      (h)  Sorting data with ORDER BY
>      (i)  Usage of NULL values
> 4.   Advanced SQL Commands
> 
>      (a)  Inserting data from a SELECT
>      (b)  Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc.
>      (c)  GROUP BY with aggregates
>      (d)  HAVING with aggregates
>      (e)  Joining tables
>      (f)  Using table aliases
>      (g)  UNION clause
>      (h)  Subqueries
>      (i)  Transactions
>      (j)  Cursors
>      (k)  Indexing
>      (l)  Table defaults
>      (m)  Primary/Foreign keys
>      (n)  AND/OR usage
>      (o)  LIKE clause usage
>      (p)  Temporary tables
>      (q)  Importing data
> 5.   POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
> 
>      (a)  Object ID'S (OID)
>      (b)  Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC)
>      (c)  Locking and Deadlocks
>      (d)  Vacuum
>      (e)  Views
>      (f)  Rules
>      (g)  Sequences
>      (h)  Triggers
>      (i)  Large Objects(BLOBS)
>      (j)  Adding User-defined Functions
>      (k)  Adding User-defined Operators
>      (l)  Adding User-defined Types
>      (m)  Exotic Preinstalled Types
>      (n)  Arrays
>      (o)  Inheritance
> 6.   Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
> 
>      (a)  C Language API
>      (b)  Embedded C
>      (c)  C++
>      (d)  JAVA
>      (e)  ODBC
>      (f)  PERL
>      (g)  TCL/TK
>      (h)  PYTHON
>      (i)  Web access (PHP)
>      (j)  Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
> 7.   POSTGRESQL Adminstration
> 
>      (a)  Creating users and databases
>      (b)  Backup and restore
>      (c)  Performance tuning
>      (d)  Troubleshooting
>      (e)  Customization options
>      (f)  Setting access permissions
> 8.   Additional Resources
> 
>      (a)  Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
>      (b)  Mailing list support
>      (c)  Supplied documentation
>      (d)  Commercial support
>      (e)  Modifying the source code
> 
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>                           PostgreSQL Book Proposal
> 
>                                Bruce Momjian
> 
>    1.
>           Introduction
>    2.
>           Installation
>         (a)
>                Getting POSTGRESQL
>         (b)
>                Compiling
>         (c)
>                Initialization
>         (d)
>                Starting the server
>         (e)
>                Creating a database
>         (f)
>                Issuing database commands
>    3.
>           Introduction to SQL
>         (a)
>                Why a database?
>         (b)
>                Creating tables
>         (c)
>                Adding data with INSERT
>         (d)
>                Viewing data with SELECT
>         (e)
>                Removing data with DELETE
>         (f)
>                Modifying data with UPDATE
>         (g)
>                Restriction with WHERE
>         (h)
>                Sorting data with ORDER BY
>         (i)
>                Usage of NULL values
>    4.
>           Advanced SQL Commands
>         (a)
>                Inserting data from a SELECT
>         (b)
>                Aggregates: COUNT, SUM, etc.
>         (c)
>                GROUP BY with aggregates
>         (d)
>                HAVING with aggregates
>         (e)
>                Joining tables
>         (f)
>                Using table aliases
>         (g)
>                UNION clause
>         (h)
>                Subqueries
>         (i)
>                Transactions
>         (j)
>                Cursors
>         (k)
>                Indexing
>         (l)
>                Table defaults
>         (m)
>                Primary/Foreign keys
>         (n)
>                AND/OR usage
>         (o)
>                LIKE clause usage
>         (p)
>                Temporary tables
>         (q)
>                Importing data
>    5.
>           POSTGRESQL'S Unique Features
>         (a)
>                Object ID'S (OID)
>         (b)
>                Multi-version Concurrency Control (MVCC)
>         (c)
>                Locking and Deadlocks
>         (d)
>                Vacuum
>         (e)
>                Views
>         (f)
>                Rules
>         (g)
>                Sequences
>         (h)
>                Triggers
>         (i)
>                Large Objects(BLOBS)
>         (j)
>                Adding User-defined Functions
>         (k)
>                Adding User-defined Operators
>         (l)
>                Adding User-defined Types
>         (m)
>                Exotic Preinstalled Types
>         (n)
>                Arrays
>         (o)
>                Inheritance
>    6.
>           Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
>         (a)
>                C Language API
>         (b)
>                Embedded C
>         (c)
>                C++
>         (d)
>                JAVA
>         (e)
>                ODBC
>         (f)
>                PERL
>         (g)
>                TCL/TK
>         (h)
>                PYTHON
>         (i)
>                Web access (PHP)
>         (j)
>                Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
>    7.
>           POSTGRESQL Adminstration
>         (a)
>                Creating users and databases
>         (b)
>                Backup and restore
>         (c)
>                Performance tuning
>         (d)
>                Troubleshooting
>         (e)
>                Customization options
>         (f)
>                Setting access permissions
>    8.
>           Additional Resources
>         (a)
>                Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ'S)
>         (b)
>                Mailing list support
>         (c)
>                Supplied documentation
>         (d)
>                Commercial support
>         (e)
>                Modifying the source code



From theo@flame.co.za Wed Oct  13 07:48:11 1999
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Organization: Flame Computing Enterprises
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book.  Many of us
> have been asked by publishers about writing a book.  Here is what I
> think would be a good outline for the book.
> 
> I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book,
> how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing
> documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
> 
> Any comments would be welcome.

A chapter following the Introduction discussing the philosopy behind
Postgres development, the benefits of Postgres,  and an outline of the
architecture would be useful.

For the rest - I can't wait :)

--------
Regards
Theo



From dms@wplus.net Wed Oct  13 08:08:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:06:59 +0400 (MSD)
Sender: dms@woland.wplus.net
From: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>
To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
	Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>


On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> 
> On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:

2BOOK Authors:
Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
languages by you self, not by publisher.


I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company 
to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
like O'Reilly have too hard license policy 
and too long reaction time. 


---
Dmitry Samersoff, dms@wplus.net, ICQ:3161705
http://devnull.wplus.net
* There will come soft rains ...



From Michael.Ansley@intec.co.za Wed Oct  13 08:13:42 1999
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From: "Ansley, Michael" <Michael.Ansley@intec.co.za>
To: "'Bruce Momjian'" <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:08:40 +0200
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>> New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?
Yes!



From chai@prima.net.id Wed Oct  13 08:23:09 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:21:35 +0700
From: Chairudin Sentosa Harjo <chai@prima.net.id>
Reply-To: chai@prima.net.id
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To: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>
CC: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <XFMail.991013120659.dms@wplus.net>
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Dmitry Samersoff wrote:
> 
> On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> >
> > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> 2BOOK Authors:
> Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> languages by you self, not by publisher.
> 
> I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company
> to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> like O'Reilly have too hard license policy
> and too long reaction time.
> 

I may ask some Indonesian's publishing company to make
Indonesian translation of this book too.
I may help the translation from English to Indonesian language.

Regards,
Chairudin Sentosa



From hannu@trust.ee Wed Oct  13 09:40:55 1999
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Message-ID: <3804545B.FC9376E8@trust.ee>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:43:55 +0300
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
	<380408E9.9D4F554A@prima.net.id>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Chairudin Sentosa Harjo wrote:
> 
> You should put one special section to talk about DATE. (datetime,
> abstime, etc..)
> That is the most asked by the mailing list.
> You could put tons of samples on how to use and manipulate DATE.
> ie. How to get the time, how to get the minute, how to get the hour,
>     how to get the month in number (1,2,3,4),
>     how to get the month in word (JAN, FEB, MAR)
    how to select all individuals that are more than 50 years old today
at 12:00PM

And ouf course about TimeZones (why sometimes I insert one date and 
get out another ;-p)

And of course mention that mostly it is not PostgreSQL's problem but
just a very hairy subject ;(

And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section 
for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be 
sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly)

> The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
> Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.

Agreed.

Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:

* Outer Joins
* Casts (bot AS and ::, with some explanations on why and when)

Not sure if Views and Triggers should go under Uniqe features - they are 
supported on most commercial SQL databases.

"Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database" could also contain more options
than PHP,
at least as references - there are much more of both established (CGI,
PyApache,mod_perl) 
and emerging (like the recent pgxml announcement) technologies for that
purpos.

Server side programming should also mention PL/Tcl 

Under which section would requirements the restrictions (db size, field
size/count, record size/count) 
or lackof them :) go?
(I recently checked Oracle8i for Linux, and it quoted 128MB RAM as
minimum and 256 
as recommended - I think we are a lot less demanding, I guess PG can
reasonably run in 16MB ?)

-----------------
Hannu



From hannu@trust.ee Wed Oct  13 09:45:29 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:48:58 +0300
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910122056.QAA09210@candle.pha.pa.us>
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> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> 
> New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?
> 

There could be also a chapter on client side tools - pgAccess et.al.
and also small (but working ;) examples for using ODBC from MS Access, 
MS Query, Delphi, JBuilder, Visual Cafe - each about 2-5 pages to get 
people started.

--------------
Hannu



From vev@michvhf.com Wed Oct  13 09:53:12 1999
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	for <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>;
	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:53:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from vev@michvhf.com)
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:53:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.991012205559.vev@michvhf.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9910130527030.7254-100000@paprika.michvhf.com>
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On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> 
> On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Frankly, if I can get away with having whole sections that point to URL
> > files, so much the better.  If I can just point them to the INSTALL
> > file, and be done with it, great.
> 
> The installation can be quick and painless.  I'll explain more tomorrow.

Ok it's tomorrow.  This will apply mainly to the actual installation 
process, but will also apply to the instructions for the book.

1) Add to configure: --with-postgres-user=  and  --with-postgres-group=
   with the default being postgres:postgres.

2) When generating the makefiles, use the -g and -o parameters to install.
   These, of course, will come from configure.

At this point, anyone can build PostgreSQL, but only root and the 
postgres user can install it.  Either way, the ownership will be correct
since we added the -g and -o to install during the configuration process.

Currently, the only difference between the way I do it and the above is
that I override INSTALL in Makefile.custom (which I believe Tom Lockhart
tipped me off to).  I build as myself and use sudo to install (as many
other admins also do).

3) gmake

4) gmake install (or sudo gmake install)

Alternately, steps 3 and 4 can be done this way:

3a) gmake > gmake.out 2>&1 &
    tail -f gmake.out

4a) gmake install >> gmake.out 2>&1 &
    tail -f gmake.out

But I don't usually bother.

The final step may not be necessary if steps 1 and 2 are done right.  I
do it just to make sure the directories have the right permissions:

5) cd /usr/local   (or whatever the directory is just below postgres')
   chown -R postgres:postgres pgsql  (substitute as necessary).

Then do whatever initdb's and createdb's etc as necessary/desired.

Even doing step 5 (and doing the custom makefile), on a 450 P-III running
FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE, I have the entire system installed and running in 
about 20-30 minutes.


So how's that?  There may be some minor differences between systems, 
I seem to recall HP having some with install(1), but I believe there
was a workaround script that fixed it for most things called bsd.install
or something like that.  I'll verify HPs install on systems from 8-10.2
later this mourning - think I have a couple SGIs I can check too.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================






From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:11:46 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131109.HAA02403@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.991013120659.dms@wplus.net> from Dmitry Samersoff at "Oct
	13, 1999 12:06:59 pm"
To: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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[Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> 
> On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > 
> > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> 2BOOK Authors:
> Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> languages by you self, not by publisher.
> 
> 
> I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company 
> to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> like O'Reilly have too hard license policy 
> and too long reaction time. 

Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:13:10 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131111.HAA02615@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.991013120659.dms@wplus.net> from Dmitry Samersoff at "Oct
	13, 1999 12:06:59 pm"
To: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:11:34 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>, Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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[Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> 
> On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > 
> > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> 2BOOK Authors:
> Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> languages by you self, not by publisher.
> 
> 
> I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company 
> to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> like O'Reilly have too hard license policy 
> and too long reaction time. 
> 

FYI, I just did bibliography, and got:

  (a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley
  (b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley
  (c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
  (d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
  (e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann

Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner.


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:14:47 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131112.HAA02733@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] RE: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <1BF7C7482189D211B03F00805F8527F748C143@S-NATH-EXCH2> from
	"Ansley, Michael" at "Oct 13, 1999 10:08:40 am"
To: "Ansley, Michael" <Michael.Ansley@intec.co.za>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:12:55 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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--ELM939813175-1691-0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> >> New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?
> Yes!

OK, here is the PDF.  Three pages in length.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

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--ELM939813175-1691-0_


--ELM939813175-1691-0_--



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:21:02 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131120.HAA02994@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804545B.FC9376E8@trust.ee> from Hannu Krosing at "Oct 13, 1999
	12:43:55 pm"
To: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:20:13 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL56 (25)]
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> And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section 
> for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be 
> sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly)
> 
> > The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
> > Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
> 
> * Outer Joins

But we don't have them yet.

> * Casts (bot AS and ::, with some explanations on why and when)
> 
> Not sure if Views and Triggers should go under Uniqe features - they are 
> supported on most commercial SQL databases.

Yes, I know, but Triggers are specific to the database, and I guess I
have to move views to the other section.

> 
> "Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database" could also contain more options
> than PHP,
> at least as references - there are much more of both established (CGI,
> PyApache,mod_perl) 

That's probably too advanced for this book.  Not sure how much detail I
am going to give each interface anyway.  Probably just two examples of
each.

> and emerging (like the recent pgxml announcement) technologies for that
> purpos.
> 
> Server side programming should also mention PL/Tcl 
> 

Added.


> Under which section would requirements the restrictions (db size, field
> size/count, record size/count) 
> or lackof them :) go?

Under Administration, or Installation.


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:22:36 1999
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	by candle.pha.pa.us (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA03047;
	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:21:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131121.HAA03047@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804558A.1E15A4F4@trust.ee> from Hannu Krosing at "Oct 13, 1999
	12:48:58 pm"
To: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:21:43 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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> 
> 
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > New version attached.  No PDF version this time.  Do people like PDF?
> > 
> 
> There could be also a chapter on client side tools - pgAccess et.al.
> and also small (but working ;) examples for using ODBC from MS Access, 
> MS Query, Delphi, JBuilder, Visual Cafe - each about 2-5 pages to get 
> people started.

I wasn't sure where to put pgaccess. I will add it to interfaces.  The
others are probably better left to another book, Interfaces PostgreSQL
to PC's.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From vev@michvhf.com Wed Oct  13 11:35:20 1999
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	by hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA98571
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Received: (qmail 7553 invoked by uid 1001); 13 Oct 1999 11:35:21 -0000
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:35:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910131120.HAA02994@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9910130734280.7254-100000@paprika.michvhf.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > And perhaps some discussion about Date/Time types also in the section 
> > for programming languages (what you get from date field, how to be 
> > sure that what you give to postgresql is understood correctly)
> > 
> > > The most important thing is to have alot of samples.
> > > Practical samples are more useful than just syntax.
> > 
> > Agreed.
> > 
> > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
> > 
> > * Outer Joins
> 
> But we don't have them yet.

Yes, but we will (or should) by the time the book comes out.  

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
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From e99re41@csd.uu.se Wed Oct  13 11:50:22 1999
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	by hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02307;
	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
	(envelope-from e99re41@csd.uu.se)
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	by meryl.csd.uu.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28216;
	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:49:31 +0200 (MET DST)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:49:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Peter Eisentraut <e99re41@csd.uu.se>
Reply-To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910131109.HAA02403@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013134118.18359E-100000@enequist.csd.uu.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> > 2BOOK Authors:
> > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> > languages by you self, not by publisher.
> > 
> > 
> > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company 
> > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy 
> > and too long reaction time. 
> 
> Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.

What about translating the regular docs first? Are you planning on using a
lot of the existing documentation for the book? Perhaps one could organize
the distributed documentation as a sort of abridged version of the
official book, similar to what is being done with Perl. Just an idea.

And what kind of timespan did you have in mind? 

I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the
User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots
of insane plans ...

	-Peter




From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 11:54:32 1999
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	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:54:32 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: (from maillist@localhost)
	by candle.pha.pa.us (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA05309;
	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:54:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131154.HAA05309@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013134118.18359E-100000@enequist.csd.uu.se>
 from
	Peter Eisentraut at "Oct 13, 1999 01:49:30 pm"
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:54:02 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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> > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> > keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.
> 
> What about translating the regular docs first? Are you planning on using a
> lot of the existing documentation for the book? Perhaps one could organize
> the distributed documentation as a sort of abridged version of the
> official book, similar to what is being done with Perl. Just an idea.
> 
> And what kind of timespan did you have in mind? 
> 
> I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the
> User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots
> of insane plans ...

Not sure on a timespan.  I think I could do most if it in one month if I
did nothing else.  My wife seems supportive of the idea.

Not sure how to merge current documentation into it.  I would like to
point them to URL locations as much as possible.  I thought if I give
them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit
together, that would be good.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From e99re41@csd.uu.se Wed Oct  13 12:08:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:08:01 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Peter Eisentraut <e99re41@csd.uu.se>
Reply-To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910131154.HAA05309@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013140113.18359F-100000@enequist.csd.uu.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Not sure how to merge current documentation into it.  I would like to
> point them to URL locations as much as possible.  I thought if I give
> them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit
> together, that would be good.

Personally, I always think that computer books that point you to URLs to
get the complete information are less than desirable. The very point of
reading the book is that you don't have to get up to your computer all the
time. Books should be self-contained and add to the existing documentation
since otherwise I won't need it.

Also, think about the fact that the online documentation might change more
quickly than a book is published. In a magazine you can do that, but in a
book that's questionable. I have a few books that are only about two years
old and the information in them is still very valid, but the URLs with all
the examples and all don't work anymore. Who knows why, I don't have the
time to find out.

But the publishers are probably a lot smarter in that area than I am.

	-Peter





From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 12:51:30 1999
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Message-Id: <199910131251.IAA06628@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013140113.18359F-100000@enequist.csd.uu.se>
 from
	Peter Eisentraut at "Oct 13, 1999 02:08:01 pm"
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:51:12 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL56 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > Not sure how to merge current documentation into it.  I would like to
> > point them to URL locations as much as possible.  I thought if I give
> > them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs fit
> > together, that would be good.
> 
> Personally, I always think that computer books that point you to URLs to
> get the complete information are less than desirable. The very point of
> reading the book is that you don't have to get up to your computer all the
> time. Books should be self-contained and add to the existing documentation
> since otherwise I won't need it.
> 
> Also, think about the fact that the online documentation might change more
> quickly than a book is published. In a magazine you can do that, but in a
> book that's questionable. I have a few books that are only about two years
> old and the information in them is still very valid, but the URLs with all
> the examples and all don't work anymore. Who knows why, I don't have the
> time to find out.
> 

I just don't want to produce a 500 page book to cover these topics.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From petermount@it.maidstone.gov.uk Wed Oct  13 13:09:50 1999
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 <1B3D5E532D18D311861A00600865478C25E6D8@exchange1.nt.maidstone.gov.uk>
From: Peter Mount <petermount@it.maidstone.gov.uk>
To: "'Bruce Momjian'" <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>, Peter Eisentraut
	<peter_e@gmx.net>
Cc: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgresql.org>, PostgreSQL-development
	<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Subject: RE: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:07:34 +0100
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500 pages isn't that much once you start rambling... I have an internal
document here that's already passed the 100 page mark, and it has hardly
anything in it - well it's about NT so it's not worth much any how ;-)

Peter

-- 
Peter Mount
Enterprise Support
Maidstone Borough Council
Any views stated are my own, and not those of Maidstone Borough Council.



-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:maillist@candle.pha.pa.us]
Sent: 13 October 1999 13:51
To: Peter Eisentraut
Cc: PostgreSQL-documentation; PostgreSQL-development
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book


> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > Not sure how to merge current documentation into it.  I would like
to
> > point them to URL locations as much as possible.  I thought if I
give
> > them enough to get started, and to understand how the current docs
fit
> > together, that would be good.
> 
> Personally, I always think that computer books that point you to URLs
to
> get the complete information are less than desirable. The very point
of
> reading the book is that you don't have to get up to your computer all
the
> time. Books should be self-contained and add to the existing
documentation
> since otherwise I won't need it.
> 
> Also, think about the fact that the online documentation might change
more
> quickly than a book is published. In a magazine you can do that, but
in a
> book that's questionable. I have a few books that are only about two
years
> old and the information in them is still very valid, but the URLs with
all
> the examples and all don't work anymore. Who knows why, I don't have
the
> time to find out.
> 

I just don't want to produce a 500 page book to cover these topics.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
19026

************



From t-ishii@sra.co.jp Wed Oct  13 14:38:27 1999
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	Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:37:56 +0900
Message-Id: <199910131437.XAA09782@ext16.sra.co.jp>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book 
From: Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp>
Reply-To: t-ishii@sra.co.jp
In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:20:13 -0400.
	<199910131120.HAA02994@candle.pha.pa.us>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 23:37:56 +0900
Sender: t-ishii@ext04.sra.co.jp

>Here is my proposal for an outline for a PostgreSQL book.  Many of us
>have been asked by publishers about writing a book.  Here is what I
>think would be a good outline for the book.
>
>I am interested in whether this is a good outline for a PostgreSQL book,
>how our existing documentation matches this outline, where our existing
>documentation can be managed into a published book, etc.
>
>Any comments would be welcome.

FYI, here is the table of contents from my PostgreSQL book published
in Japan at the beginning of this year (I do not guarantee the
accuracy of translation to English, however).

Note that the second edition about to be released will contain many more 
topics including MVCC, transactions, views, rules, triggers...
---
Tatsuo Ishii

-----------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 1

Introduction to PostgreSQL

1.1 History of PostgreSQL
1.2 Advantages of PostgreSQL

Chapter 2

Installation

2.1 Before installation
2.2 Preparing for installation
2.3 Compiling and installation
2.4 Setting your environment
2.5 Initialization
2.6 Adding users and creating database
2.7 Using psql
2.8 Security

Chapter 3

Learning PostgreSQL

3.1 Processes and modules
3.2 Source tree
3.3 Data types
3.4 User defined functions
3.5 User defined operators
3.6 User defined types

Chapter 4

Make applications

4.1 Tcl/Tk
4.2 C
4.3 PHP
4.4 Perl
4.5 Java

Chapter 5

Tips for PostgreSQL

5.1 Backuping database
5.2 Benchmark tests
5.3 Performance tuning
5.4 Troubles shooting
5.5 New functionalities (while writing this book 6.4 was about to release)
5.6 Developers and future plans
5.7 Resources on the Internet

Appendix

Total pages: 309



From schulz@Linux-Systemhaus.de Wed Oct  13 14:52:32 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:52:11 +0200 (CEST)
From: Karsten Schulz <schulz@Linux-Systemhaus.de>
X-Sender: schulz@jupiter.netgroup.de
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
cc: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>,
	Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991013134118.18359E-100000@enequist.csd.uu.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.991013164757.15201A-100000@jupiter.netgroup.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the
> User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots
> of insane plans ...

Hi Peter,

I translated the FAQ and Linux-FAQ to german recently. I consider to
translate the online doc, too. But it is so much for one person, so I
didn't started yet. What about a cooperation? 
(Warning: I really need some advices to set up my sgml system ;))

have fun!
Karsten





From scrappy@hub.org Wed Oct  13 15:31:44 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:31:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910131120.HAA02994@candle.pha.pa.us>
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On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
> > 
> > * Outer Joins
> 
> But we don't have them yet.

As someone else mentioned previously, due to time required to write,
publish and get this out on the shelf, shouldn't we be revolving this
around the upcoming v7 release, which I believe Thomas has Outer Joins
target'd for?

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 




From jhouchin@texoma.net Wed Oct  13 15:51:20 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:50:43 -0500
From: Jimmie Houchin <jhouchin@texoma.net>
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Cc: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910131111.HAA02615@candle.pha.pa.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hello,

I just joined this list and am getting into the middle of this thread,
but I did go back and read the archives.

Just a few comments.

To answer a previous question, I like PDFs.

I like the approach that Bruce Eckel has taken to writing his last
couple of books. It was somewhat of an opensource approach. He wrote the
book and kept it on his site in PDF format and released regular updates
based on either his additions to the book or corrections of errors and
such by readers. It helped him to develop a good rapport with his
audience. I do not believe the book being available on the web really
impacted the sales of the published book that much. I know I printed one
copy and purchased one copy.
http://www.BruceEckel.com/

One thing to consider when writing the book is keeping it on target
about PostgreSQL. I was browsing Amazon and SQL books and was reading
about the MySQL book by O'Reilly. It got some really bad reviews based
it being to general on databases and not specific about MySQL. Many said
great db book, poor MySQL book.
Read about it at, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565924347 .

Their are many books which cover the basics of databases and database
design and you list a few below. What is needed is a PostgreSQL book.
Their will be overlap, but the emphasis should be on database
development with PostgreSQL. That is what will differentiate it from
others.

Addison Wesley is an excellent publisher as is O'Reilly. I would
recommend trying the above approach when writing the book and find a
publisher friendly to the idea. Bruce's Thinking in Java was published
by Prentice Hall. I don't know about any of the other publishers.

Jimmie Houchin


Bruce Momjian wrote:
[snip]
> FYI, I just did bibliography, and got:
> 
>   (a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley
>   (b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley
>   (c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
>   (d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
>   (e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann
> 
> Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner.
> 
> --
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
>   maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> 
> ************



From lamar.owen@wgcr.org Wed Oct  13 15:53:39 1999
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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:52:41 -0400
From: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Organization: WGCR Internet Radio
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To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
CC: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910131109.HAA02403@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.

Talk to Philip Greenspun.  Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book,
"Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on
the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook).  His e-mail is philg@mit.edu.

And you gotta see the quality of his book!  Amazon carries it. 
(although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little
over the top....)

--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
Pisgah Forest, North Carolina
1 Peter 4:11



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 16:46:49 1999
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Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.991013164757.15201A-100000@jupiter.netgroup.de>
	from Karsten Schulz at "Oct 13, 1999 04:52:11 pm"
To: Karsten Schulz <schulz@Linux-Systemhaus.de>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>, Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>,
	Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> 
> > I had the insane plan of providing a German documentation (at least the
> > User's Guide) in time for 7.0. (big market) On the other hand, I have lots
> > of insane plans ...
> 
> Hi Peter,
> 
> I translated the FAQ and Linux-FAQ to german recently. I consider to
> translate the online doc, too. But it is so much for one person, so I
> didn't started yet. What about a cooperation? 
> (Warning: I really need some advices to set up my sgml system ;))

I got sgmltools 2.0.1 and installed it on BSDI with no problems.  Only
issue was that I needed install GNU m4.  See SGML docs for sgmltools
install notes.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 16:46:54 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131646.MAA13097@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9910131229460.30583-100000@thelab.hub.org> from
 The
	Hermit Hacker at "Oct 13, 1999 12:31:09 pm"
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:46:17 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Hannu Krosing <hannu@trust.ee>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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> On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > > Maybe "Advanced SQL Commands" could also contain:
> > > 
> > > * Outer Joins
> > 
> > But we don't have them yet.
> 
> As someone else mentioned previously, due to time required to write,
> publish and get this out on the shelf, shouldn't we be revolving this
> around the upcoming v7 release, which I believe Thomas has Outer Joins
> target'd for?

Yes, for 7.0, but no sense in writing stuff until it is completed.  I
don't even have WAL mentioned.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From jhouchin@texoma.net Wed Oct  13 16:48:41 1999
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In-Reply-To: <3804AAC9.FE9FEF75@wgcr.org>
References: <199910131109.HAA02403@candle.pha.pa.us>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:48:24 -0500
To: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>,
 Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
From: Jimmie Houchin <jhouchin@texoma.net>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Cc: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>

Hello,

I agree with your comments here. When I posted my message I had forgotten
about Philip's book. Excellent book and website, photos, many are great and
many are as you say "a little over the top".

Based on his book which I learned about from his articles on LinuxWorld I
have decided to deploy my website with AOLserver. I currently am planning
to use PostgreSQL for the database.

He does a great job of discussing how to develop excellent websites.

Jimmie Houchin


At 11:52 AM -0400 10/13/99, Lamar Owen wrote:
>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
>> keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.
>
>Talk to Philip Greenspun.  Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book,
>"Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on
>the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook).  His e-mail is philg@mit.edu.
>
>And you gotta see the quality of his book!  Amazon carries it.
>(although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little
>over the top....)
>
>--
>Lamar Owen
>WGCR Internet Radio
>Pisgah Forest, North Carolina
>1 Peter 4:11
>
>************




From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 17:01:52 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131652.MAA13573@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804AA53.BAE48B13@texoma.net> from Jimmie Houchin at "Oct 13,
	1999 10:50:43 am"
To: Jimmie Houchin <jhouchin@texoma.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:52:23 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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> Hello,
> 
> I just joined this list and am getting into the middle of this thread,
> but I did go back and read the archives.
> 
> Just a few comments.
> 
> To answer a previous question, I like PDFs.
> 
> I like the approach that Bruce Eckel has taken to writing his last
> couple of books. It was somewhat of an opensource approach. He wrote the
> book and kept it on his site in PDF format and released regular updates
> based on either his additions to the book or corrections of errors and
> such by readers. It helped him to develop a good rapport with his
> audience. I do not believe the book being available on the web really
> impacted the sales of the published book that much. I know I printed one
> copy and purchased one copy.
> http://www.BruceEckel.com/

Yes, I would like to do that, and the publisher I was talking to today
seemed to think it was fine.  He said it helps sell books.  I would be
very unhappy if the book could not be put on the web.  In fact, he is
subscribed to the hackers list, so he may be reading this.


> One thing to consider when writing the book is keeping it on target
> about PostgreSQL. I was browsing Amazon and SQL books and was reading
> about the MySQL book by O'Reilly. It got some really bad reviews based
> it being to general on databases and not specific about MySQL. Many said
> great db book, poor MySQL book.
> Read about it at, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565924347 .

Good point.  I will keep it in mind.

> Their are many books which cover the basics of databases and database
> design and you list a few below. What is needed is a PostgreSQL book.
> Their will be overlap, but the emphasis should be on database
> development with PostgreSQL. That is what will differentiate it from
> others.


Good.  And I will show actual PostgreSQL examples in the book, with
PostgreSQL output from psql, etc.

> Addison Wesley is an excellent publisher as is O'Reilly. I would
> recommend trying the above approach when writing the book and find a
> publisher friendly to the idea. Bruce's Thinking in Java was published
> by Prentice Hall. I don't know about any of the other publishers.

Yes, I am a big Addison Wesley fan.  I realized this when I found most
of the books I like were from them.  I am not a big O'Reilly fan, though
I have a few of their books.


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 17:02:52 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131653.MAA13583@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804AAC9.FE9FEF75@wgcr.org> from Lamar Owen at "Oct 13,
	1999 11:52:41 am"
To: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
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> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> > keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.
> 
> Talk to Philip Greenspun.  Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book,
> "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on
> the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook).  His e-mail is philg@mit.edu.
> 
> And you gotta see the quality of his book!  Amazon carries it. 
> (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little
> over the top....)

Again, having it on the web will be done.  No better way to have it
available to everyone, and it helps sell books, and the publisher thinks
that is fine.

Morgan-Kaufmann is good, but I don't have many of their books.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Wed Oct  13 19:01:10 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910131831.OAA17018@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Re: [DOCS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <87u2nw8c6x.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk> from Bruce Stephens at "Oct
	12, 1999 11:08:05 pm"
To: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:31:54 -0400 (EDT)
CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
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> Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> 
> >                           PostgreSQL Book Proposal
> >                                       
> >                                Bruce Momjian
> 
> [...]
> 
> >    4.
> >           Advanced SQL Commands
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> >    6.
> >           Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
> >         (a)
> >                C Language API
> >         (b)
> >                Embedded C
> >         (c)
> >                C++
> >         (d)
> >                JAVA
> >         (e)
> >                ODBC
> >         (f)
> >                PERL
> >         (g)
> >                TCL/TK
> >         (h)
> >                PYTHON
> >         (i)
> >                Web access (PHP)
> >         (j)
> >                Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
> 
> Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4?  (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL
> specific.)  Or am I completely confused?  (Where can I read about
> PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?)
> 
> If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter
> 6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for
> the latter.  

Not sure.  They are properly 'programming' to me, so I put them there. 
They address a similar programmatic need in the database.

> (Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match
> what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but
> even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of
> a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of
> all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.)

I was going to do a newbie thing and show the advantages of each one. 
Not sure I want to go into great depth on any of them.  Just enough to
get people started, and using the documentation.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From chai@prima.net.id Thu Oct  14 01:25:10 1999
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CC: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Re: [DOCS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
References: <199910121716.NAA29586@candle.pha.pa.us>
	<87u2nw8c6x.fsf@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
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Bruce Stephens wrote:
> 
> Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> 
> >                           PostgreSQL Book Proposal
> >
> >                                Bruce Momjian
> 
> [...]
> 
> >    4.
> >           Advanced SQL Commands
> 
> [...]
> 
> >    6.
> >           Interfacing to the POSTGRESQL Database
> >         (a)
> >                C Language API
> >         (b)
> >                Embedded C
> >         (c)
> >                C++
> >         (d)
> >                JAVA
> >         (e)
> >                ODBC
> >         (f)
> >                PERL
> >         (g)
> >                TCL/TK
> >         (h)
> >                PYTHON
> >         (i)
> >                Web access (PHP)
> >         (j)
> >                Server-side programming (PLPGSQL and SPI)
> 
> Isn't (j) logically part of chapter 4?  (Or 5, if it's PostgreSQL
> specific.)  Or am I completely confused?  (Where can I read about
> PLPGSQL and/or SPI, other than in the forthcoming book?)
> 
> If it came to a choice between having very short sections in chapter
> 6, and having two or three of them covered in more depth, I'd go for
> the latter.
> 
> (Of course, you'll inevitably choose two or three which don't match
> what many readers will want (whichever two or three you choose), but
> even so, I think I'd get more out of a reasonably thorough coverage of
> a couple of languages that I won't use than superficial coverage of
> all of them which doesn't really reveal anything useful.)
> 
> ************


I second this opinion.



From jeff@hub.org Thu Oct  14 13:52:16 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:07:52 -0300 (ADT)
From: Jeff MacDonald <jeff@hub.org>
Reply-To: Jeff MacDonald <jeff@hub.org>
To: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
cc: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <199910131111.HAA02615@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910141106250.28983-100000@penguin.hub.org>
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Last night Marc and i picked up 

Object Relation DBMS
Michael Stonebraker & Paul Brown
Pub: Morgan Kaufman
ISBN  1 55860 452 9

It was reccommented by a potential client, i'll put up 
a review when i finish it.

Jeff

On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> [Charset KOI8-R unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > 
> > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > 
> > 2BOOK Authors:
> > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> > languages by you self, not by publisher.
> > 
> > 
> > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company 
> > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy 
> > and too long reaction time. 
> > 
> 
> FYI, I just did bibliography, and got:
> 
>   (a) The Practical SQL Handbook, Bowman et al., Addison Wesley
>   (b) Web Development with PHP and PostgreSQL, \ldots{}, Addison Wesley
>   (c) A Guide to The SQL Standard, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
>   (d) An Introduction to Database Systems, C.J. Date, Addison Wesley
>   (e) SQL For Smarties, Joe Celko, Morgan, Kaufmann
> 
> Looks like Addision Wesley is the winner.
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
>   maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> 
> ************
> 

Jeff MacDonald
jeff@hub.org

===================================================================
 So long as the Universe had a beginning, we can suppose it had a 
creator, but if the Universe is completly self contained , having 
no boundry or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed
 It would simply be.
===================================================================





From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Thu Oct  21 03:49:59 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199910210349.XAA12496@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804AAC9.FE9FEF75@wgcr.org> from Lamar Owen at "Oct 13,
	1999 11:52:41 am"
To: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:49:25 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	"PostgreSQL-development"@candle.pha.pa.us,
	pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org, Jan Wieck <jwieck@debis.com>
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> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> > keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.
> 
> Talk to Philip Greenspun.  Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book,
> "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on
> the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook).  His e-mail is philg@mit.edu.

I have this from Addison Wesley.  It is online now.

> And you gotta see the quality of his book!  Amazon carries it. 
> (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little
> over the top....)

Much thanks for sending me this suggestion.

I read it at:

	http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html

First, it is very long, so let me give you a quick summary.  He did his
first book for MacMillan, which is like Sams, Waite, etc.  Basically your
fat book for dummies, and had a pretty terrible experience.  You have to
read it to appreciate it.  This reminds me of Thomas's comment that we
need a good, quality publisher for our books.  If the first book that
came out on PostgreSQL was "PostgreSQL for Dummies", Marc would have a
fit.  And I have seen him in fits -- it is not pretty.

He did his second book for Morgan Kaufmann, who is a quality publisher
like Addison Wesley.  Totally different experience, and a different
quality book.

This is required reading for anyone who is interested in the book
writing experience or is considering writing a book.  People, we need to
stay with the quality publishers, if possible.

I am sure there will be a "PostgreSQL Unleashed" book one day, with tons
of graphic arrows and very little content, but let's put it off as long
as we can.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From paul.becker@awl.com Thu Oct  21 14:43:36 1999
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	Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Paul Becker" <paul.becker@awl.com>
To: "'Bruce Momjian'" <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>,
	"'Lamar Owen'" <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Cc: "'Dmitry Samersoff'" <dms@wplus.net>,
	"'Vince Vielhaber'" <vev@michvhf.com>,
	"'Oliver Elphick'" <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	"'PostgreSQL-documentation'" <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	<"PostgreSQL-development"@candle.pha.pa.us>,
	<pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>, "'Jan Wieck'" <jwieck@debis.com>
Subject: RE: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:06:16 -0400
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If I may add..

I would highly recommend that you all read Phil Greenspun's story about his
experience in publishing his book with MacMillan.  Read between the lines,
however.  Where ever reference is made to MacMillan you could substitue
almost <any publisher>. Greenspun is a great story teller so the material is
a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences.  He strikes
me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read
some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one.

Paul

Paul W. Becker
Addison Wesley Longman
671 Andover Road
Valley Cottage, NY  10989

914-268-8003 (v)
914-268-3874 (f)

Assistant: Ross Venables 781-944-3700  x2501




-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:maillist@candle.pha.pa.us]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:49 PM
To: Lamar Owen
Cc: Dmitry Samersoff; Vince Vielhaber; Oliver Elphick;
PostgreSQL-documentation; "PostgreSQL-development"@candle.pha.pa.us;
pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org; Jan Wieck
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book


> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Actually, I want to make sure the book is accessible on the web.  I will
> > keep your translation idea in mind.  Good point.
>
> Talk to Philip Greenspun.  Morgan-Kaufman cut him a deal where his book,
> "Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing" is also available free on
> the web (http://photo.net/wtr/thebook).  His e-mail is philg@mit.edu.

I have this from Addison Wesley.  It is online now.

> And you gotta see the quality of his book!  Amazon carries it.
> (although, I must say, some of his choices for pictures were a little
> over the top....)

Much thanks for sending me this suggestion.

I read it at:

	http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html

First, it is very long, so let me give you a quick summary.  He did his
first book for MacMillan, which is like Sams, Waite, etc.  Basically your
fat book for dummies, and had a pretty terrible experience.  You have to
read it to appreciate it.  This reminds me of Thomas's comment that we
need a good, quality publisher for our books.  If the first book that
came out on PostgreSQL was "PostgreSQL for Dummies", Marc would have a
fit.  And I have seen him in fits -- it is not pretty.

He did his second book for Morgan Kaufmann, who is a quality publisher
like Addison Wesley.  Totally different experience, and a different
quality book.

This is required reading for anyone who is interested in the book
writing experience or is considering writing a book.  People, we need to
stay with the quality publishers, if possible.

I am sure there will be a "PostgreSQL Unleashed" book one day, with tons
of graphic arrows and very little content, but let's put it off as long
as we can.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026





From lamar.owen@wgcr.org Thu Oct  21 15:11:03 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:09:37 -0400
From: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
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To: Paul Becker <paul.becker@awl.com>
CC: "'Bruce Momjian'" <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>,
	"'Dmitry Samersoff'" <dms@wplus.net>,
	"'Vince Vielhaber'" <vev@michvhf.com>,
	"'Oliver Elphick'" <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	"'PostgreSQL-documentation'" <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development@candle.pha.pa.us, pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org,
	"'Jan Wieck'" <jwieck@debis.com>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
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Paul Becker wrote:
> a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences.  He strikes
> me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read
> some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one.

And "Travels with Samantha" is a hoot.  His coding style is very similar
to his writing style -- lispish.  But, then again, he's an old-hand MIT
LISP hacker.  You should read his tcl one day -- I've laughed till I've
cried over some of his code.  (I don't know if that's more of a
statement about his coding style, or about my reading habits.....)

Philip is certainly an interesting writer.

Oh, BTW, Bruce, "You're Welcome."

Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11



From maillist@candle.pha.pa.us Thu Oct  21 16:56:54 1999
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From: Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <380F2CB1.27DE3A2@wgcr.org> from Lamar Owen at "Oct 21,
	1999 11:09:37 am"
To: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:55:56 -0400 (EDT)
CC: Paul Becker <paul.becker@awl.com>, "'Dmitry Samersoff'" <dms@wplus.net>,
	"'Vince Vielhaber'" <vev@michvhf.com>,
	"'Oliver Elphick'" <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	"'PostgreSQL-documentation'" <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development@candle.pha.pa.us, pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org,
	"'Jan Wieck'" <jwieck@debis.com>
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> Paul Becker wrote:
> > a good read. I'm sure he embellished a lot on his experiences.  He strikes
> > me as being a puckish kind of guy, somewhat rare amongst engineers. Read
> > some of his other material. A Day at the Zoo is a good one.
> 
> And "Travels with Samantha" is a hoot.  His coding style is very similar
> to his writing style -- lispish.  But, then again, he's an old-hand MIT
> LISP hacker.  You should read his tcl one day -- I've laughed till I've
> cried over some of his code.  (I don't know if that's more of a
> statement about his coding style, or about my reading habits.....)
> 
> Philip is certainly an interesting writer.

Yes, he was interesting.  He clearly caused some of his own problems
with MacMillan, and I agreed with MacMillan on a number of issues.

What I found interesting is something I had suspected for quite some
time.  I found that I have some great computer books, but when I go to
the computer section of a book store, most books there are junk.

Then I ordered Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming" directly from
Addison Wesley, and I started receiving their quarterly book bulletins. 
I said, "Hey, I read that book, and that one, and that one..."  I
realized that most of my books are from a handful of book publishers,
Addison Wesley being the most popular in my bookshelf.

Basically, I realized that not all the publishers are the same.  Some
produce quality, and others take a much more marketing slant in book
production, usually producing poor quality books.

One of the reasons I am posting this to the list is so people
considering book writing ( and I know some publishers have been lurking
in the past months), be careful who you sign with.  It can affect your
whole outlook on the process, and in the end, it is your name that is on
the cover of the book, not the publisher.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026



From pgman@candle.pha.pa.us Tue Nov  30 01:35:39 1999
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	Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:31:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Message-Id: <199911300131.UAA20072@candle.pha.pa.us>
Subject: Re: [DOCS] Re: [HACKERS] Outline for PostgreSQL book
In-Reply-To: <3804410F.A0B29C16@prima.net.id> from Chairudin Sentosa Harjo at
	"Oct 13, 1999 03:21:35 pm"
To: chai@prima.net.id
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:31:46 -0500 (EST)
CC: Dmitry Samersoff <dms@wplus.net>, Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>,
	Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>,
	PostgreSQL-documentation <docs@postgreSQL.org>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>,
	Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us>
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> Dmitry Samersoff wrote:
> > 
> > On 13-Oct-99 Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > >
> > > On 13-Oct-99 Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > 
> > 2BOOK Authors:
> > Please, try to keep rights for translating this book into another
> > languages by you self, not by publisher.
> > 
> > I may ask some St.Pitersburg's publishing company
> > to make russian translation of this book, but some publishers
> > like O'Reilly have too hard license policy
> > and too long reaction time.
> > 
> 
> I may ask some Indonesian's publishing company to make
> Indonesian translation of this book too.
> I may help the translation from English to Indonesian language.

Addison-Wesley does a lot of foreign rights sales.  Let me know when you
want information.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026