From susanne@2ndQuadrant.com Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-5.hub.org [200.46.204.29]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887DC1337C05 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:09:01 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.29]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24848-03 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:08:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from outmail148098.authsmtp.com (outmail148098.authsmtp.com [62.13.148.98]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599791337BE8 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:08:39 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail-c194.authsmtp.com (mail-c194.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.121]) by punt12.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id p2U88cnj061601 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:08:38 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.23.4] (212.100.42.202.fixip.bitel.net [212.100.42.202]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id p2U88ZTT022782 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:08:35 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:08:34 +0200 From: Susanne Ebrecht User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.14) Gecko/20110223 Thunderbird/3.1.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgsql-docs@postgreSQL.org Subject: English Grammar question Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000501080308090901070500" X-Server-Quench: e9674db2-5aa4-11e0-80b9-0022640b883e X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCdxZQATClZOUR8T DCUJJHVGRTw4LxFW CBkfawBdJUwRWh9I NgNWKVFIGEUbXk1W QTNoOihKDx8mF2B1 dHcALxpfYktPTwVj WkhBSFFXWgdpAwIA Bh4AVhtsdQVEZ3x1 ekYsHnI+VEwQESJ9 QExTHW9IZmdlYC5K WUZfc1cGch5PL05B d1F+AXMQaWVVb2dg R1VpYWxpN2UPcylD bwcCKVMJQQ4kBDc5 QhkYVSwyEFYZRiI1 R38A X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633235383639.1015:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.899 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201103/132 X-Sequence-Number: 6565 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000501080308090901070500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html "The design of the rule system at that time was described in /The design of the POSTGRES rules system/ . The rationale and architecture of the storage manager were detailed in /The design of the POSTGRES storage system /" I am not sure if the grammar is correct here. My feeling says it should be: "is decribed" and "are detailed" instead of "was and were" I am pretty sure these books still exist. Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com --------------000501080308090901070500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello,

during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html

"The design of the rule system at that time was described in The design of the POSTGRES rules system. The rationale and architecture of the storage manager were detailed in The design of the POSTGRES storage system "

I am not sure if the grammar is correct here.

My feeling says it should be:

"is decribed" and "are detailed" instead of "was and were"

I am pretty sure these books still exist.

Susanne

-- 
Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services
www.2ndQuadrant.com

--------------000501080308090901070500-- From dpage@pgadmin.org Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-3.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8BB1337BD8 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:15:31 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17382-04 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:15:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862511337BA8 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:15:23 -0300 (ADT) Received: by iwn34 with SMTP id 34so998064iwn.19 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:15:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.148.133 with SMTP id r5mr884029icv.469.1301472923098; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.165.135 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:15:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> References: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:15:23 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: English Grammar question From: Dave Page To: Susanne Ebrecht Cc: pgsql-docs@postgresql.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201103/133 X-Sequence-Number: 6566 On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > Hello, > > during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html > > "The design of the rule system at that time was described in The design o= f > the POSTGRES rules system. The rationale and architecture of the storage > manager were detailed in The design of the POSTGRES storage system " > > I am not sure if the grammar is correct here. > > My feeling says it should be: > > "is decribed" and "are detailed"=A0 instead of "was and were" > > I am pretty sure these books still exist. It seems fine to me. The tense refers to when it was written, not when the papers were available (or not). --=20 Dave Page Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com Twitter: @pgsnake EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company From simon@2ndQuadrant.com Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-2.hub.org [200.46.204.251]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E711337BD8 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:18:57 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.251]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 75613-07 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:18:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from outmail148161.authsmtp.com (outmail148161.authsmtp.com [62.13.148.161]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D85C1337BA8 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:18:38 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail-c193.authsmtp.com (mail-c193.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.118]) by punt6.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id p2U8IbOP024091 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:18:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail-qw0-f46.google.com (mail-qw0-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id p2U8IZ14089715 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:18:36 +0100 (BST) Received: by qwk3 with SMTP id 3so646934qwk.19 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:18:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.40.134 with SMTP id k6mr667197qce.242.1301473115204; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.96.9 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:18:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> References: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:18:35 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: English Grammar question From: Simon Riggs To: Susanne Ebrecht Cc: pgsql-docs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Server-Quench: 4f78d66e-5aa6-11e0-97bb-002264978518 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCdxZQATClZOTQEd DAteCiN5VAwpPBRK HVkIKg5MOFUSTAAU PkFRNXJLN0YASktU QCdXRQsWBxNyWXwI OkhObwVcY1pOVg9r WEJKRBxQFAx2CRkf BB8YTB10aABOf2Fx KwZgO3giNkV+dU50 RU9RW24CbWcubDYY WBRecVZJdVIbeAJE awV/SXoKMzcaZnpi RVFvbm9hYGwPPh5Y EEk+AXU5enNDMzgz QxEZHX0AB0QAQiwp ZwU7J0UAHUEXWgAA X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633235383639.1014:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201103/134 X-Sequence-Number: 6567 On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > Hello, > > during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html > > "The design of the rule system at that time was described in The design o= f > the POSTGRES rules system. The rationale and architecture of the storage > manager were detailed in The design of the POSTGRES storage system " > > I am not sure if the grammar is correct here. > > My feeling says it should be: > > "is decribed" and "are detailed"=A0 instead of "was and were" > > I am pretty sure these books still exist. I think both are correct, but you are right that those books still exist and so it looks archaic and can be reworded. --=20 =A0Simon Riggs=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 http:/= /www.2ndQuadrant.com/ =A0PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services From heikki.linnakangas@enterprisedb.com Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-3.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F84D1337BE3 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:19:12 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56602-03 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:19:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from exprod7og125.obsmtp.com (exprod7og125.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.28]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9984A1337BE1 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 05:19:04 -0300 (ADT) Received: from source ([209.85.215.176]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob125.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTZLndz3/a4g8anuv6KeWBAn6fArUUSfe@postini.com; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:19:05 PDT Received: by eya28 with SMTP id 28so387897eya.21 for ; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.1.209 with SMTP id 17mr111814ebg.104.1301473142476; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.183] (dsl-hkibrasgw2-ff7ac300-240.dhcp.inet.fi [88.195.122.240]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y7sm4052762eeh.0.2011.03.30.01.19.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D92E773.7000400@enterprisedb.com> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:18:59 +0300 From: Heikki Linnakangas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; fi-FI; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20110307 Icedove/3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Susanne Ebrecht CC: pgsql-docs@postgreSQL.org Subject: Re: English Grammar question References: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> In-Reply-To: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201103/135 X-Sequence-Number: 6568 On 30.03.2011 11:08, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: > Hello, > > during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html > > "The design of the rule system at that time was described in /The design > of the POSTGRES rules system/ > . The > rationale and architecture of the storage manager were detailed in /The > design of the POSTGRES storage system > /" > > I am not sure if the grammar is correct here. > > My feeling says it should be: > > "is decribed" and "are detailed" instead of "was and were" > > I am pretty sure these books still exist. Both would be correct, but with a slightly different meaning. What it means now is that someone wrote a description of (= described) the design in that book. If you change it to "is described", it means that there is a description on the (old) design, with nothing said about when the description was written. The difference becomes more clear if you change the sentence to active form: "[Some unnamed person] described the design of the rule system at that time in /The design of the POSTGRES rules system" (was described) vs. "/The design of the POSTGRES rules system/ describes the design of the rules system at that time" (is described) -- Heikki Linnakangas EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com From robertmhaas@gmail.com Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-3.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3C3F1337BD5 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:11:44 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27235-01 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:11:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF381337BD3 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:11:36 -0300 (ADT) Received: by iwn34 with SMTP id 34so2542059iwn.19 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:11:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=hZclDWb3l+2XNdYBtdc2ctRiq6u6hTXB8Pxp3W7EiIk=; b=CAY0T3aZecPc53SNkbvp9CBNDxck5tFQLKZU0cPeTRLsaOJkx9dSMfJI9nJNjkhjaz ErHseK4G9FbzyygWB2UrSHMjUKm7XJm9MQnnPSlUyXnryVaKDr1CyorwAWYt7one/IWg 3d8zS05mSvzrwFP6joPDYmhh97mApsdfV94kE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=cJO4cmZyBk7UP9JNJ9H0jUEnyAX1Lng+Z+BTKgExtyDgojMF9vKrRVR4alO4YWTUZG 6A+L5X2J3xw+ssCnynksbXP5VEYMBMgaEwRmVnS2/Zca935dFbSHCseg9b38Wdistbfn KBb71+Y+TAeIghkpgVoMVmsI8YcGIpE8nz29g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.161.202 with SMTP id u10mr3495579icx.160.1301587894745; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.47.129 with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:11:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D92E773.7000400@enterprisedb.com> References: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> <4D92E773.7000400@enterprisedb.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:11:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: English Grammar question From: Robert Haas To: Heikki Linnakangas Cc: Susanne Ebrecht , pgsql-docs@postgresql.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.899 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201103/136 X-Sequence-Number: 6569 On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:18 AM, Heikki Linnakangas wrote: > On 30.03.2011 11:08, Susanne Ebrecht wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> during translation the history.sgml - I found the following sentences in >> >> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.0/static/history.html >> >> "The design of the rule system at that time was described in /The design >> of the POSTGRES rules system/ >> . The >> rationale and architecture of the storage manager were detailed in /The >> design of the POSTGRES storage system >> /" >> >> I am not sure if the grammar is correct here. >> >> My feeling says it should be: >> >> "is decribed" and "are detailed" instead of "was and were" >> >> I am pretty sure these books still exist. > > Both would be correct, but with a slightly different meaning. What it means > now is that someone wrote a description of (= described) the design in that > book. If you change it to "is described", it means that there is a > description on the (old) design, with nothing said about when the > description was written. I think this is a correct analysis of grammar - both are correct, with slightly different meanings. I actually find both phrasings a bit awkward, though. What we're really trying to do here is provide the links, but that is sometimes better done in a footnote or bibliography than in the middle of a body of text. -- Robert Haas EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company From susanne@2ndQuadrant.com Mon Jun 1 17:57:10 2026 Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-3.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391941337BEE for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2011 04:56:51 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 84147-07-2 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2011 07:56:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from outmail148113.authsmtp.com (outmail148113.authsmtp.com [62.13.148.113]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39081337BF1 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2011 04:56:43 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail-c193.authsmtp.com (mail-c193.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.118]) by punt10.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/Kp) with ESMTP id p327ufBh001977; Sat, 2 Apr 2011 08:56:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from [192.168.23.4] (212.100.42.202.fixip.bitel.net [212.100.42.202]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id p327udaN064964; Sat, 2 Apr 2011 08:56:40 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4D96D6B7.2020405@2ndQuadrant.com> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:56:39 +0200 From: Susanne Ebrecht User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.14) Gecko/20110223 Thunderbird/3.1.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Haas CC: pgsql-docs@postgreSQL.org Subject: Re: refer to books in footnote References: <4D92E502.9050804@2ndQuadrant.com> <4D92E773.7000400@enterprisedb.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Quench: be2ec000-5cfe-11e0-97bb-002264978518 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCdxZQATClZOUR8T DCUJJHVGRTw4LxFW CBkfawBdJUwMSABN M15eIxoJcUtEHxZw QyQUWVRVUU1xUWlw bQBVbUtfY0hQXgVq TkxLXFBSFhpqBAMB SF4dUB43I1Q4eHh0 bEBmEHNTVUI0JxN/ Fx1UFW0bYDQ2PX0e URVYagpTIlFXfh9H aFZ7XXQFZGQPKBg1 TUcAExcaBgAXMilb TxtFMVVaS0EMHSV0 RhZKEzIoAUsCWyhb X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633235383639.1014:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 tagged_above=-5 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201104/5 X-Sequence-Number: 6576 On 31.03.2011 18:11, Robert Haas wrote: > I actually find both phrasings a bit > ... What we're really trying to do here is provide the > links, but that is sometimes better done in a footnote or bibliography > than in the middle of a body of text. > Honestly, I like the idea for the future. I think the effort doing it in existing docs is too high - but for future docs it is great. I have another argument for it: During translating the tutorial I found another sentence - referring books for SQL beginners. After very long thinking and after chatting about it with Peter - I skipped the sentence German translation. I translate the documentation into German mostly for ppl who are not able to speak English. It is not a good style to tell people here that when they want to learn SQL they should read English books - besides there is a translated version of the books - which wasn't the case. I would not have such a big problem here with translation when links to books would be just in a footnote - it don't look such painful to refer to English books in footnotes, when the books aren't available in German. Just my 2Cent, Susanne -- Susanne Ebrecht - 2ndQuadrant PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training and Services www.2ndQuadrant.com