Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iX5Kh-0005R6-RG for pgsql-docs@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:22:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iX5Kf-0007FR-5A for pgsql-docs@arkaria.postgresql.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:22:21 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iX5Ke-0007FJ-JC for pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:22:20 +0000 Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iX5Kb-00069a-7g for pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 15:22:19 +0000 Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id z23so18089141qkj.10 for ; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GJuhgNBW56mJzCnTkCdYMZ36DJ/H3Oybst+SILAx4LM=; b=j/HGo7Xi73X2mWXhLiWgHDnyOQmrGJ/UGasTrgo7WVUjtj0/AsU7MCfwZcqpnwY1Vf GwvWPmyFgTINV2eWhsdVlfVzLmCyyLnBtJKhqrZ/v4G6E5PgRZYZu3tBsCfmTT9VgBSp hwNJj8mvxsSCwj1CY1hgK3utDpBQ8j3vR1igr/V/4RO8X+O9p6HjZXefjeAGkXyPV6gU ihVtzlVoCvc6PTeYuN0Dv8Y2nX5sloYpL+HDB2y8tQlrM80+gCNQPMwBal6XGA1t7IxW EiD1AoTAJEIQQ/8jxxIQgE0VeIYih3PEgqxX7YW7YnRGVqV8JeODvje0Pmsk+xbn2iFX XkXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GJuhgNBW56mJzCnTkCdYMZ36DJ/H3Oybst+SILAx4LM=; b=DGomFYQAUEUv01c9rfQMz9Drqu0WkT5HOeCiGdi3PPzwWdNFhUo4l5Kt+Kv8GkhX03 FNp2jM3QQIJTH+zQSyr18R6ex34dS0TFswsNkmGayIOG7IpLqBuDsamPXWhTy/nXVW/7 jSWo1+SleJnHHMYMAwjoTEdsEJduJB5wpFUdgNAbgX+ffvF1N+cETMmgQaXsHJzoXWpK NOKeaDWih+PEQdnwraWaljJynLm13atX/K6+3hLHX2gGm3VzLTIxOx6AdvlplFH4O68X tt7O89DEG0zMSmKSqxKTLp3AxznQcVwe3OOiEQqm5ubwVCGtWKddW6s+OQRcspccVtlx FReA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWtMYZwnFoDv9zE2M4PWA8b2tJm4bBt5MvTEbaeyjenmYuqdE2x WJ4BTEkzCgVd+kEL0A28FmC5UaC9X7/f0g4N4ZY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwZkN5vgyonXrsQbkoxNt/8AWmrai6dectCxXecn3mURs+qP+gl023ZdyC5XUJajaQXR1M5INEsoaqrz4PdgEw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a95:: with SMTP id 143mr29293869qkk.382.1574176936253; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:22:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <54907b90aa20e603eb4204153c7dd5790ce258a4.camel@cybertec.at> In-Reply-To: From: Liudmila Mantrova Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:22:04 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: GSoD - a patch for Getting Started tutorial To: Laurenz Albe Cc: pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org, Stephen Frost , Sarah Conway Schnurr Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000195c9d0597b4a120" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --000000000000195c9d0597b4a120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 11:00 AM Laurenz Albe wrote: > On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 23:35 +0300, Liudmila Mantrova wrote: > > > I am a bit uncomfortable about having details about the workings of > > > binary packages for specific operating systems in the core > documentation. > > > Maybe I'm too sensitive there, but what about having these parts in > the Wiki > > > and linking there from the tutorial? > > > > I also had my doubts about it, but since we are only talking about PGDG > packages that > > the community supports, it's probably OK to have it in docs? Besides, I > believe we > > should be consistent here - if we are hand-holding the user through the > source install, > > we should have a description for binary install as well (which is even > more useful for novices). > > I also think it makes the tutorial self-contained, which seems to > address one of the > > concerns raised in the presentation you are referring to. > > Perhaps you are right, but I wonder if following a link into the Wiki > would be a great hurdle for the novice. > I personally thought that a lot of the complaints in the presentation > were ridiculous, so we need not follow its recommendations slavishly. > i'm all for linking to the download page for the exact install commands (which I did), but i see no harm in mentioning e.g. install/data directories in documentation. It is something I myself went back to when working on this tutorial update, so I believe the user will do too. But let's hope we'll hear other opinions as well before I go and rework it all. > > > Quickly skimming over the text, I have two things to comment: > > > - The RedHat binaries use "trust" authentication by default, not > "peer". > > > > Do you mean PGDG binaries or any other binaries? For a PGDG install on > e.g. RHEL 8, > > peer seems to be the default. > > But now that you mentioned it, I realized that trust is the default for > > source installs and it might be worth adding, too. I'll try to tweak > this part again. > > The binaries for Fedora Linux use "trust". > Fedora 31 seems to be using peer. What am I missing? # dnf install postgresql12-server Last metadata expiration check: 0:03:09 ago on Tue Nov 19 13:11:43 2019. Dependencies resolved. ======================================================================================================================== Package Architecture Version Repository Size ======================================================================================================================== Installing: postgresql12-server x86_64 12.1-1PGDG.f31 pgdg12 5.1 M Installing dependencies: postgresql12 x86_64 12.1-1PGDG.f31 pgdg12 1.5 M postgresql12-libs x86_64 12.1-1PGDG.f31 pgdg12 419 k Transaction Summary ======================================================================================================================== Install 3 Packages [root@localhost ~]# /usr/pgsql-12/bin/postgresql-12-setup initdb Initializing database ... OK ... [root@localhost ~]# grep '^local' /var/lib/pgsql/12/data/pg_hba.conf local all all peer local replication all peer > I think that the source installation is covered well enough. > > > > - I couldn't see anything about Windows. > > > I think that particularly on Windows people would need a tutorial > most, > > > not because Windows people are more clueless, but because things work > > > differently there. Many Windows users don't know how to start a > shell. > > > > I think we can extend it with Windows specifics if there are no other > major concerns. > > (But it'll probably take some time for me to try it and figure out the > differences. > > Although I know how to start a shell, I'm sure I'll face other problems. > :)) > > I understand your reluctance. > But if we want to cater for clueless beginners, we cannot omit Windows. > I wouldn't call it reluctance, it'll just take some time to figure out as I'm not a PostgreSQL user myself. Btw, I'll also appreciate your input if you have anything specific in mind about the differences we need to cover. Do I get it right that you suggest adding info on EDB installer to our docs? > > Yours, > Laurenz Albe > -- > Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com > > -- Best regards, Liudmila Mantrova Technical writer at Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com --000000000000195c9d0597b4a120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 11:00 AM Laurenz Albe <laurenz.albe@cybertec.at> wrote:
=
On Mon, 2019-11-18 at 23:= 35 +0300, Liudmila Mantrova wrote:
> > I am a bit uncomfortable about having details about the workings = of
> > binary packages for specific operating systems in the core docume= ntation.
> > Maybe I'm too sensitive there, but what about having these pa= rts in the Wiki
> > and linking there from the tutorial?
>
> I also had my doubts about it, but since we are only talking about PGD= G packages that
> the community supports, it's probably OK to have it in docs? Besid= es, I believe we
> should be consistent here - if we are hand-holding the user through th= e source install,
> we should have a description for binary install as well (which is even= more useful for novices).
> I also think it makes the tutorial self-contained, which seems to addr= ess one of the
> concerns raised in the presentation you are referring to.

Perhaps you are right, but I wonder if following a link into the Wiki
would be a great hurdle for the novice.
I personally thought that a lot of the complaints in the presentation
were ridiculous, so we need not follow its recommendations slavishly.
<= /blockquote>
=C2=A0
i'm all for linking to the download p= age for the exact install commands (which I did), but i see no harm in ment= ioning e.g. install/data directories in documentation. It is something I my= self went back to when working on this tutorial update, so I believe the us= er will do too. But let's hope we'll hear other opinions as well be= fore I go and rework it all.


> > Quickly skimming over the text, I have two things to comment:
> > - The RedHat binaries use "trust" authentication by def= ault, not "peer".
>
> Do you mean PGDG binaries or any other binaries? For a PGDG install on= e.g. RHEL 8,
> peer seems to be the default.
> But now that you mentioned it, I realized that trust is the default fo= r
> source installs and it might be worth adding, too. I'll try to twe= ak this part again.

The binaries for Fedora Linux use "trust".
= =C2=A0
Fedora 31 seems to be using peer. What am I missing?
# dnf install postgresql12-server
Last metadata expiration check: 0:03= :09 ago on Tue Nov 19 13:11:43 2019.
Dependencies resolved.
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=C2=A0Package =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Architecture =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Version = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Repository =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Size=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Installi= ng:
=C2=A0postgresql12-server =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 x86_64 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 12.1-1PGDG.f31 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = pgdg12 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5.1 M
Ins= talling dependencies:
=C2=A0postgresql12 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0x86_64 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 12.1-1PGDG.f31 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pgdg12 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1.5 M
=C2=A0postgresql12-libs =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 x86_64 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 12.1-1PGDG.f31 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pgdg12 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 419 k

Transaction Summary
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Install =C2=A03 Package= s

[root@localhost ~]# /usr/pgsql-12/bin/postgresql-12-setup initdbInitializing database ... OK
...
[root@localhost ~]# grep &#= 39;^local' /var/lib/pgsql/12/data/pg_hba.conf
local =C2=A0 all =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 peer
local =C2=A0 replication =C2=A0 =C2=A0 all =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 peer


I think that the source installation is covered well enough.

> > - I couldn't see anything about Windows.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0I think that particularly on Windows people would nee= d a tutorial most,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0not because Windows people are more clueless, but bec= ause things work
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0differently there.=C2=A0 Many Windows users don't= know how to start a shell.
>=C2=A0
> I think we can extend it with Windows specifics if there are no other = major concerns.
> (But it'll probably take some time for me to try it and figure out= the differences.
> Although I know how to start a shell, I'm sure I'll face other= problems. :))

I understand your reluctance.
But if we want to cater for clueless beginners, we cannot omit Windows.
=
=C2=A0
I wouldn't call it reluctance, it= 9;ll just take some time to figure out as I'm not a PostgreSQL user mys= elf. Btw, I'll also appreciate your input if you have anything specific= in mind about the differences we need to cover. Do I get it right that you= suggest adding info on EDB installer to our docs?

Yours,
Laurenz Albe
--
Cybertec | https://www.cybertec-postgresql.com


--
Best regards,
Liudmila Mantrova=C2=A0

Technical writer at Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
<= /div>
--000000000000195c9d0597b4a120--