Subject: Re:

From: Michael Glaesemann <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:44:52 +0900

I tried sending this yesterday with the PDF attached, but I haven't 
seen it show up on the list. This is the same email sans attachment.
---
I was feeling particularly organizational today and redrew one of the 
figures from the documentation. In the PostgreSQL 7.3 PDF 
documentation, it's the System Catalogs Diagram, or Figure 3. The major 
POSTGRES system catalogs.

I reproduced what was there, though I moved some of the relations 
around to make the diagram a little clearer, I think. I haven't checked 
it against what's written in the 7.4 documentation, as I know the 
system catalogs change every once in a while. If this is something 
you'd like, but changes need to be made (or if I've just messed 
something up), I'll go ahead and make them. I've attached a PDF, though 
if you'd like a different format I can convert it.

I can't tell if it's included in the 7.4 documentation—I couldn't find 
it. If you don't need it, no big deal, but I thought I'd offer.

Michael
grzm myrealbox com

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From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:16:39 -0500

> POSTGRES system catalogs.

Peter just removed all those figures because they were so out-of-date as
to be useless.  If you redrew from the figure rather than from looking
at the actual catalogs documentation, I fear your version is too :-(.

I'd be interested in having a nice figure to document the catalog
relationships, but it has to be something that can be maintained over
time.  The reason the old figures got so out-of-date is that no current
maintainer understood the tools they were generated with.  So if you
want to submit something, I'd ask that it be generated with open-source
tools and that it come with an explanation of how to modify and
regenerate it.  Within those ground rules, go to it ...

			regards, tom lane

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From: Michael Glaesemann <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:29:53 +0900

> at the actual catalogs documentation, I fear your version is too :-(.

I guessed that was the case. However, it's easier to change once I've 
got the data than starting from scratch.

>  So if you want to submit something, I'd ask that it be generated with 
> open-source
> regenerate it.

Well, looks like I'm 0-2. I used InDesign, which is a *long* way from 
open source. I can definitely understand that being able to maintain it 
is a virtue. If you'd like to include an up-to-date version, knowing 
you might have to throw it out at a later date when it gets too old to 
be useful, I'm willing to make the changes. I'm not familiar enough 
with open source graphic design tools to know what to use. :(

Might something be better than nothing? I know it's not the best 
situation, but the offer's still good.

Michael
grzm myrealbox com

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 17:16:40 +0100 (CET)

> with open source graphic design tools to know what to use. :(

We're not going to make any major changes in the 7.4 documentation anyway
at this point, so you don't have to feel rushed.  I don't mind including
graphics, but there needs to be a maintenance path.  SVG might be
something to try.  You could even create a simpler catalog description
file in an ad-hoc XML format and then create the SVG automatically.

By the way, when done well, pictures like the catalog layout, the backend
flow chart, or a graphical representation of a query plan also make nice
posters.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   [email-masked]

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:08:50 -0800

Michael,

> with open source graphic design tools to know what to use. :(

OpenOffice.org draw is easy to use & understand and generates both PDF and 
XML.  Not terribly sophisticated, but OSS and widely cross platform.   If you 
want a better drawing tool, try KDE's Kontour.

> situation, but the offer's still good.

I think Elein would be happy to host it on General Bits while we work on 
re-inventing Techdocs.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 21:53:37 -0500 (EST)

> regenerate it.  Within those ground rules, go to it ...

My performance tuning PDF has a system table chart written using xfig so
it has almost infinite resolution:

	http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/performance.pdf

It is the second to last slide.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  [email-masked]               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

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From: Michael Glaesemann <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:55:23 +0900

On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 01:16 AM, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> I don't mind including graphics, but there needs to be a maintenance 
> path.  SVG might be something to try.  You could even create a simpler 
> catalog description

InDesign does have an SVG export option. I haven't done anything with 
it, and it's something I'll look into.

> flow chart, or a graphical representation of a query plan also make 

Now there's a thought. The docs might be pretty much taken care of, but 
when's your next presentation? :)

> want a better drawing tool, try KDE's Kontour.
<snip/>
> I think Elein would be happy to host it on General Bits while we work 

Thanks for the offer. I'll let you know once I've updated the diagram 
to match what's in 7.4.

> It is the second to last slide.

Thanks, Josh and Bruce, for alternative apps. I'll take a look!

Michael
grzm myrealbox com

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:30:47 -0800

Guys,

> when's your next presentation? :)

That's a *great* idea.  I smell PostgreSQL benefit merchandise here.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:47:34 +0100 (CET)

> when's your next presentation? :)

I already have posters like that.  I'm just saying, keep that application
in mind when you make new pictures.