Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iFePB-0002iz-Qw for pgsql-docs@arkaria.postgresql.org; Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:10:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iFePA-0001Lt-KX for pgsql-docs@arkaria.postgresql.org; Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:10:56 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iFePA-0001Lm-9W for pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:10:56 +0000 Received: from meldrar.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::31]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iFeP7-0002IQ-6k for pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:10:55 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=postgresql.org; s=20171124; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=pd3QHyLkiOQWHAA51INJyBL06miAn9u4Q8+gTTxOhow=; b=EKM3Z2qGhs1yM7KW/sLdZcCb1D eueduRUsAoVKn5tiTAFFiJ4ZRZ3CazFaBok3rZ/qMH6NDWV5UC2JG+AUYCtLKJ0F4rfu+dBphyUNH /ElwRHNiFGddxn1Rb9agY4jmcN6mgvLrelY8OqBkigaBQ8ECf0PrZz5ePyiHB7+uQg1TeWFzOGnRF dC2rgFC4E5syW6L4bn4/3h++18xhCQwSBpvpMIBXlmAKhYmjY5Pj6oId3/vHiKE/E70yzhLHkT7oY EsjmADdarmowxenignakL1joz2zLnUceNNvht/3N8FqhacqYDz21hpzIHZxCpGK5069hZVtwwj6hz qHjh19dw==; Received: from pool-173-77-254-165.nycmny.fios.verizon.net ([173.77.254.165] helo=Ph33r-Retina.home) by meldrar.postgresql.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iFeP2-0007ES-5H; Wed, 02 Oct 2019 13:10:50 +0000 Subject: Re: I'm surprised to see the word master here To: Chris Travers , Erikjan Rijkers Cc: Peter Eisentraut , Magnus Hagander , Selena Deckelmann , Stephen Frost , Dave Cramer , Renee , Pg Docs References: <156935509221.1111.13488785881287521100@wrigleys.postgresql.org> <0268aaf1-02e2-9d29-a751-ec42c21a889f@2ndquadrant.com> <36E41634-B602-4D7C-8ACE-7EA03D2DF6E5@gmail.com> <86ee53bd-e016-86c8-3c20-41702c48a12f@2ndquadrant.com> <20191002060653.GC6962@tamriel.snowman.net> <611b57f4-be10-5e12-26ea-a2b1940d70bd@2ndquadrant.com> From: "Jonathan S. Katz" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jkatz@postgresql.org; keydata= mQINBFtShwABEAC7PNHDUOTYuifpUCk23KqfxdQQkn4nkoxOXRK0+rAj36FiwqGB4TJFuOVZ sDFAEiSlC8Jt4y5Cs7B5tetT8JNd2cs6zp/udMJJDz9d65O9PDpdlMgAmIiTzpLlSdx8FG56 DTksaDv1d8j3cTJPSE4/fWSxqzA7o3Y9UuL7atZPrzfImgpRKs0of7elIHwOa8GucjyhYqcR h60wFBJc2KXqQdDYRTZy43DSnY/0VNc0omiH355fustvpm+m5HjD3w7qZyfN3fpKJpnX1LCF f3MnPHaDGITIYGRCBXvf0UqUtD6OEVWPv2C2gyqWMIpWmZTOgDufltKyIByKBoS9x0PlFkij 04X3KODCngt+N8Ssc9OICc6QSxhjoP48PYPdmiTmkrGuf0LX084wj1xeo1NX7XxZK39F6dTJ DhsIiW0sNS0xMxQHLHG9VLbPjx3SANQBh6BuryPz5ZupW9/TIDmkvprtU/oXfKgtfYm3fxmk EctxbWrEPsFTFPyuMqQu6l+xyQv0s1VLZfjNWaua6H1/gGoIt6kRnn5qMXDVVpijuWkHbv7G ngaQMd258UrrOEHnnjzhQ7jxMWV9D+emxbAtlIxnYvCWlV4IwAQhEHfvudqYaIY3hNWrvQ6H GB2KXoTZYN9g5djm14/5nj1IU5zOcovkjJnKhoo9iStnpFF2cwARAQABtCdKb25hdGhhbiBT LiBLYXR6IDxqa2F0ekBwb3N0Z3Jlc3FsLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEIAD4CGwMFCQeGH4AFCwkIBwIG FQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQT6hLaVryv3miBkP/HxBJxynxxlJwUCW1KJJQAKCRDxBJxy nxxlJwjrD/kBgqsW4QpNpTFw7ifRokZV08CCX4huPBJQ91rrv+UEWlEcotFBHVkYyHnpzARl tcZxhJ9CbFxjniH9cOTty5T/O1yolbOHtZSW8Z8aWV6BVEbjMb+BFxSSLm7RnvJdzQbGCZq2 ZZvfVpB6z3EHYph4KDdVKvMFjoLskxmdS1DE0tE3zTxvoQsi24Q+HOS07kUjs6fsu/WICMfz mgO++AWG9Y0CvN0mm4TkujESzyKM9E5irD+leEMIcddl51Aa2c/VMfBXQbRmpHIgUFTmuHQD CnQih+9i3OJAksDg66SP8a7yiXv5mwvyDi1EfTGVKYR2j+pwyjwnC3oIbvDMmB3uTn2JIjnT iZKPVtAcAylXjubFltihQgNyuShdP4W+kBwZizhUFqUVL8Anx+KoytYmJPfMRFLGuK4obXKq a2ZS3k9KB+H+isOx2nFJOsc7V360Zp1DVaNmuiK10TT6QndShSPaqkJqFtCb6r92rZ9sZM/L 3vtCI4Rrl3Pt1MgtENXupS8gZpJnAYS0j5A1PAZ09r6ANoaeMHspF+5J5fOHeEvqphXr36mm a83Vl1t4orPb0+QmmijmlpseDU63M88Aw5p3c4qj7t8Qr2EZ5zrn7/sFn5wOfbs8Nymxafif QCnlV2vg9p0m7vSk/yLJ4PFZvs52FgqAGRCdRn0s2EC99bkCDQRbUocAARAAv8ho/toQ9DG3 j4f9h9n1aRHr2FlviN2Utpy6L8+dfDggO0geilmkGQOolZ2E60gGfye/kUtF9W3NByO4hxDR 9u6qbOXcdqnuA+cc68EfqlWFJrVtYFxt0h4ElWYOYnIezKthriWch/FY70FGrxs3z8UHOHq5 0wBW433eTvZm90WixBiXEt2v1DgW4Vr3ymfO7Aap/IYyPuE4JzgudAuAl0HKPyNEHWHG1dAb jX1RiCw9gknIDWQOF0B4UAaJctWGVcnZ3A2ULwNGMa1P9ZJlBWf1vcj01aiHMU0yQ7JjJiSp vfm9eM0uSLwRdDrJjyl5ZZqVumjdv2SMNQ8GvYRbEMys3GGDSt9zXgfCSUnPnJfYxjzBHRI6 x44Wfsx8S6hWxepOogCJJ/g67Bk9mY8YV4klWIXDJVOL5jnBC09DbsZG81JaE2QxB8Y7W36Z Mroi9XMxg3s805hQAQUvdG/poU8hN8BWdrnTm/+4eQQp7gDY1ePDmGM6bJC+OHOSnFtR/f+7 0zpKJ10cc7cBygGnl1yR3KjhFyAWUFvP4ZGziKCcpMwXZfe9PGuyA/YOubMphxIn3YsK2wrd faKZYX2GMZCZhMMcvx9IpQrxIJgU+VlwXu/O+Lk10VIPcxPJJwmpdI6HzcS8ZgG6IMcC444X XTuLaP8j2mgcMvYak3ScCykAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQgAJhYhBPqEtpWvK/eaIGQ/8fEEnHKfHGUn BQJbUocAAhsMBQkHhh+AAAoJEPEEnHKfHGUnReMP/RA2UhGQj+G4uBshkRLjpRysabdPqgQB dEBk6wYbio88Wg/2/hgY7UzmDDEwX3sZfQDcrI6+vIobI8uqstZID+WgAAa1JLfChMyVQnSy 0zfWMOABXscc5tGuvFRZvJklTissMFjXUwaREEKp4ZikTvJ/62MCjSdtrUhnPLvoTsHTKRKD ichE+b5A54alwsubTijw12O6N22r5IjZiiSZV0u7dsShyKw+7wCSax9fuBoE43NMYf+dnjMK nerAQYUcZWYMnk+EC8RaqYAxv6XZ2tKx1AkGGktwkQIBwrz9IlDSvJ3LWJ2UIIuLRTdngNgg GIL4zzuUa2F56FqskQIuYMaNETk6LYfalBDQ6TVLAcgCPQxp4k4i/PRsZ3lZ2ZhRHRYciOvm kp+I6EfHwllQpYrWs1thluBGqlJSVJgKl0IOFvKLsQ6KKfqzAwh6FxrO5qajp4viNIgtWoFw O5Bp0jgFTbH2OrMWIRfUdUCH1Djbuo65svhNj7FNsQVYzHDI+Nd1I/LOBoPc3UorRMF2M4JV kUR7skOHWUbPTSNUr7qc14NSMY3PKjGeVGAsBVHBPvmRx/Ss2tW/TpJWpxg4pmquFQSXuaYh Yf4FN8Sxy320pcr+FqN8AhZkYJcNY82OTtR5VEKRC/mYcyq61qXIKqngydn79bJjGxHipxyF FmEC Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:10:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Uuf4U37oaGsGb6urCAudVIGtQBp3K4239" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --Uuf4U37oaGsGb6urCAudVIGtQBp3K4239 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="5xH9TXiBptJRltzd4E3mKc8R1kNJlYdkJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Jonathan S. Katz" To: Chris Travers , Erikjan Rijkers Cc: Peter Eisentraut , Magnus Hagander , Selena Deckelmann , Stephen Frost , Dave Cramer , Renee , Pg Docs Message-ID: Subject: Re: I'm surprised to see the word master here References: <156935509221.1111.13488785881287521100@wrigleys.postgresql.org> <0268aaf1-02e2-9d29-a751-ec42c21a889f@2ndquadrant.com> <36E41634-B602-4D7C-8ACE-7EA03D2DF6E5@gmail.com> <86ee53bd-e016-86c8-3c20-41702c48a12f@2ndquadrant.com> <20191002060653.GC6962@tamriel.snowman.net> <611b57f4-be10-5e12-26ea-a2b1940d70bd@2ndquadrant.com> In-Reply-To: --5xH9TXiBptJRltzd4E3mKc8R1kNJlYdkJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/2/19 7:39 AM, Chris Travers wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:57 PM Erikjan Rijkers > wrote: >=20 > On 2019-10-02 12:46, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > On 2019-10-02 10:21, Magnus Hagander wrote: > >> Exactly. Both might be accurate, but one comes with a lot less > >> baggage. > >> > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I support a search and replace.=C2=A0 > >> > >> I think it'll take a bit more than just a simple "sed script to > >> replace", if that's what you mean. But probably not all that muc= h -- > >> but > >> there can certainly be cases where nearby langaugae=C2=A0also ha= s to be > >> changed to make it work properly. But I have a hard time seeing = it as > >> being a *huge* undertaking. > > > > I find this proposal to be dubious and unsubstantiated.=C2=A0 Do = we need to > > get rid of "multimaster", "postmaster"? > > >=20 > IMHO, hat would seem a bad idea.=C2=A0 Let's not take the politicis= ing too > far. >=20 > I would say leave it at abolishing 'slave' (as we have already done= ). >=20 >=20 > But that raises an important point, which is that if we remove master > entirely from the replication lexicon, then I don't see how multi-maste= r > makes sense.=C2=A0 If consistency is a goal, postmaster still works but= there > is no alternative to multi-master in common usage. At various events and tradeshows that include representation from other database systems, the terminology that I hear is "active-active" -- this is not one-off, but from a lot of people. This is also a common term for the major proprietary systems as well. I hear it much more commonly than "multi-master" even. > Can I make a suggestion here to help ease that problem: >=20 > We standardize on "primary" and "replica" but on the first usage of > "primary" we have a parenthetical note that "primary" is sometimes > called "master" so that terms like multi-master continue to be > intuitively intelligible.=20 I'd +1 s/master/primary/ -- I don't know if it needs parenthetical on the first usage in places (maybe in sections on replication/clustering, but not everywhere). Let's at least consider using "active-active" instead of "multi-master" given there is already usage of that term in the industry. It would be good to see what other systems do; matching terminology could have its advantages. It's not politicizing if we're making the terminology more inline with the industry. I don't think postmaster needs to change; this is a title in many countries[1] and I presume would also require a nontrivial effort and potentially affect systems. Jonathan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmaster --5xH9TXiBptJRltzd4E3mKc8R1kNJlYdkJ-- --Uuf4U37oaGsGb6urCAudVIGtQBp3K4239 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE+oS2la8r95ogZD/x8QSccp8cZScFAl2UodAACgkQ8QSccp8c ZSdtwQ//W/B9y1Y8yT6nHUpp+izeHbl5rF9/b22GOtQVRyM9fYh6YFss9qh7rP9D 7fGiPbbPOtCS7GHGQM9WsaIV67i5g0IffTqMuFfaPFKv6QT2PM4OQIDqQ3aG0jNl 8rA4CrFEs5FD4/YcoJOMVLtYeLGqzYpjc+jLykSqQVeUeMU3ABWFdPFtaWFZ3hVZ S35JDTZJyvmFaWbkBsURgLIyzjeQWRpJ+a3r/8YZa2kI6iPNdI/frZ3biQFQxfBn dUakAKksHrOSnRX/7ElDiqNbQH84ag8lSOxMsOmL5hXeY50U4mUm9bt9quB5MTjP jrMaFYR/flzNNvjwME3Lj3Kwdr0fJokhWKfBkzYkf296coXmW17vxUw1xstJyT/f h1Kax3KVdoNKXDfySzbNWAdbIZCeU1wpFLFYtvhIDrbM+9G35toSf7YHNri9jl/2 SRonLKB3E4poYFo1GcwR7K7fhHxUP0/PnYczPHaTL0qaqkspSZGOnL6p1XHabs1+ GaCTOFs/GwQvgmu75wLR2yirKiUZeOTZ0fghmajfpe3LSt4FmZx9A6/YxqXdBLaf exZCJJLtgJakDB3HMBgF3lU6NaCwmJ3+u7DGqkfxpa0Mn1TIBYTPS7KkKOOBE9X7 dDl5WPwK4mYASs2RAAr7hq4PKa9MOt8yubXE1VSr2cE/2oSkzEY= =Fb/a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Uuf4U37oaGsGb6urCAudVIGtQBp3K4239--