Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hU9kD-0004gO-Oj for pgsql-hackers@arkaria.postgresql.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 12:56:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hU9kC-0005ie-Fu for pgsql-hackers@arkaria.postgresql.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 12:56:20 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hU9kC-0005iW-6v for pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 12:56:20 +0000 Received: from meldrar.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::31]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hU9k5-0000pK-UO for pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 12:56:19 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=postgresql.org; s=20171124; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Elji/DpTkP/oMmte6LYYlu00+MTLwDVNgP74Il4U23E=; b=YhZmf1p9oaWPuWoWAeTr49G5cX QeZVGvHVhUqDDFlVQQOZ8FLW+Z0C26Ldx87KRQVnHKYZwkSRuLkjaZTWlBa+jaZ3g58UZ8XncRrzY EuuqtWEC1U9n0a1hud/KP7kPMed7o7CS/9vosyIJky5vtsHJ6bvePN+48XOWIvqi9UOfqqqjrnRXx YswlOJE+53o2m7hrcoPk6kSr/nvMSmV6fwqFIrqSDzE91vjhuujuxliqmZ8LHyNrZP/kynXDXPHLZ RLzF14pL1bzqYdJMmkjWWm+gNaVEsIoKtOBEauJgq0TOD3pLuAj8k3fQzODW9wRDbZ03MQwFP2lEB /JXlXU8Q==; Received: from pool-96-250-83-19.nycmny.fios.verizon.net ([96.250.83.19] helo=Ph33r-Retina.home) by meldrar.postgresql.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hU9k3-0007jb-2T; Fri, 24 May 2019 12:56:13 +0000 Subject: Re: initdb recommendations To: Stephen Frost , Magnus Hagander Cc: Joe Conway , Tom Lane , Peter Eisentraut , pgsql-hackers , Noah Misch References: <96389374-9454-d26d-6f79-7c7b15ec14bd@2ndquadrant.com> <81b36e8b-e27b-ab5d-c4f0-6493771bc0ee@postgresql.org> <9f46f065-ca80-f637-8c5d-a9877bcd5eab@postgresql.org> <10093.1558664907@sss.pgh.pa.us> <20190524023009.GL2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <20190524121306.GS2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <17041a05-0e28-f2b1-bf0c-fe375af66b45@joeconway.com> <20190524121904.GU2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <20190524123317.GW2480@tamriel.snowman.net> From: "Jonathan S. Katz" Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jkatz@postgresql.org; keydata= mQINBFtShwABEAC7PNHDUOTYuifpUCk23KqfxdQQkn4nkoxOXRK0+rAj36FiwqGB4TJFuOVZ sDFAEiSlC8Jt4y5Cs7B5tetT8JNd2cs6zp/udMJJDz9d65O9PDpdlMgAmIiTzpLlSdx8FG56 DTksaDv1d8j3cTJPSE4/fWSxqzA7o3Y9UuL7atZPrzfImgpRKs0of7elIHwOa8GucjyhYqcR h60wFBJc2KXqQdDYRTZy43DSnY/0VNc0omiH355fustvpm+m5HjD3w7qZyfN3fpKJpnX1LCF f3MnPHaDGITIYGRCBXvf0UqUtD6OEVWPv2C2gyqWMIpWmZTOgDufltKyIByKBoS9x0PlFkij 04X3KODCngt+N8Ssc9OICc6QSxhjoP48PYPdmiTmkrGuf0LX084wj1xeo1NX7XxZK39F6dTJ DhsIiW0sNS0xMxQHLHG9VLbPjx3SANQBh6BuryPz5ZupW9/TIDmkvprtU/oXfKgtfYm3fxmk EctxbWrEPsFTFPyuMqQu6l+xyQv0s1VLZfjNWaua6H1/gGoIt6kRnn5qMXDVVpijuWkHbv7G ngaQMd258UrrOEHnnjzhQ7jxMWV9D+emxbAtlIxnYvCWlV4IwAQhEHfvudqYaIY3hNWrvQ6H GB2KXoTZYN9g5djm14/5nj1IU5zOcovkjJnKhoo9iStnpFF2cwARAQABtCdKb25hdGhhbiBT LiBLYXR6IDxqa2F0ekBwb3N0Z3Jlc3FsLm9yZz6JAlQEEwEIAD4CGwMFCQeGH4AFCwkIBwIG FQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AWIQT6hLaVryv3miBkP/HxBJxynxxlJwUCW1KJJQAKCRDxBJxy nxxlJwjrD/kBgqsW4QpNpTFw7ifRokZV08CCX4huPBJQ91rrv+UEWlEcotFBHVkYyHnpzARl tcZxhJ9CbFxjniH9cOTty5T/O1yolbOHtZSW8Z8aWV6BVEbjMb+BFxSSLm7RnvJdzQbGCZq2 ZZvfVpB6z3EHYph4KDdVKvMFjoLskxmdS1DE0tE3zTxvoQsi24Q+HOS07kUjs6fsu/WICMfz mgO++AWG9Y0CvN0mm4TkujESzyKM9E5irD+leEMIcddl51Aa2c/VMfBXQbRmpHIgUFTmuHQD CnQih+9i3OJAksDg66SP8a7yiXv5mwvyDi1EfTGVKYR2j+pwyjwnC3oIbvDMmB3uTn2JIjnT iZKPVtAcAylXjubFltihQgNyuShdP4W+kBwZizhUFqUVL8Anx+KoytYmJPfMRFLGuK4obXKq a2ZS3k9KB+H+isOx2nFJOsc7V360Zp1DVaNmuiK10TT6QndShSPaqkJqFtCb6r92rZ9sZM/L 3vtCI4Rrl3Pt1MgtENXupS8gZpJnAYS0j5A1PAZ09r6ANoaeMHspF+5J5fOHeEvqphXr36mm a83Vl1t4orPb0+QmmijmlpseDU63M88Aw5p3c4qj7t8Qr2EZ5zrn7/sFn5wOfbs8Nymxafif QCnlV2vg9p0m7vSk/yLJ4PFZvs52FgqAGRCdRn0s2EC99bkCDQRbUocAARAAv8ho/toQ9DG3 j4f9h9n1aRHr2FlviN2Utpy6L8+dfDggO0geilmkGQOolZ2E60gGfye/kUtF9W3NByO4hxDR 9u6qbOXcdqnuA+cc68EfqlWFJrVtYFxt0h4ElWYOYnIezKthriWch/FY70FGrxs3z8UHOHq5 0wBW433eTvZm90WixBiXEt2v1DgW4Vr3ymfO7Aap/IYyPuE4JzgudAuAl0HKPyNEHWHG1dAb jX1RiCw9gknIDWQOF0B4UAaJctWGVcnZ3A2ULwNGMa1P9ZJlBWf1vcj01aiHMU0yQ7JjJiSp vfm9eM0uSLwRdDrJjyl5ZZqVumjdv2SMNQ8GvYRbEMys3GGDSt9zXgfCSUnPnJfYxjzBHRI6 x44Wfsx8S6hWxepOogCJJ/g67Bk9mY8YV4klWIXDJVOL5jnBC09DbsZG81JaE2QxB8Y7W36Z Mroi9XMxg3s805hQAQUvdG/poU8hN8BWdrnTm/+4eQQp7gDY1ePDmGM6bJC+OHOSnFtR/f+7 0zpKJ10cc7cBygGnl1yR3KjhFyAWUFvP4ZGziKCcpMwXZfe9PGuyA/YOubMphxIn3YsK2wrd faKZYX2GMZCZhMMcvx9IpQrxIJgU+VlwXu/O+Lk10VIPcxPJJwmpdI6HzcS8ZgG6IMcC444X XTuLaP8j2mgcMvYak3ScCykAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQgAJhYhBPqEtpWvK/eaIGQ/8fEEnHKfHGUn BQJbUocAAhsMBQkHhh+AAAoJEPEEnHKfHGUnReMP/RA2UhGQj+G4uBshkRLjpRysabdPqgQB dEBk6wYbio88Wg/2/hgY7UzmDDEwX3sZfQDcrI6+vIobI8uqstZID+WgAAa1JLfChMyVQnSy 0zfWMOABXscc5tGuvFRZvJklTissMFjXUwaREEKp4ZikTvJ/62MCjSdtrUhnPLvoTsHTKRKD ichE+b5A54alwsubTijw12O6N22r5IjZiiSZV0u7dsShyKw+7wCSax9fuBoE43NMYf+dnjMK nerAQYUcZWYMnk+EC8RaqYAxv6XZ2tKx1AkGGktwkQIBwrz9IlDSvJ3LWJ2UIIuLRTdngNgg GIL4zzuUa2F56FqskQIuYMaNETk6LYfalBDQ6TVLAcgCPQxp4k4i/PRsZ3lZ2ZhRHRYciOvm kp+I6EfHwllQpYrWs1thluBGqlJSVJgKl0IOFvKLsQ6KKfqzAwh6FxrO5qajp4viNIgtWoFw O5Bp0jgFTbH2OrMWIRfUdUCH1Djbuo65svhNj7FNsQVYzHDI+Nd1I/LOBoPc3UorRMF2M4JV kUR7skOHWUbPTSNUr7qc14NSMY3PKjGeVGAsBVHBPvmRx/Ss2tW/TpJWpxg4pmquFQSXuaYh Yf4FN8Sxy320pcr+FqN8AhZkYJcNY82OTtR5VEKRC/mYcyq61qXIKqngydn79bJjGxHipxyF FmEC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 08:56:05 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190524123317.GW2480@tamriel.snowman.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="se98pVVvWBXKeXxr8I4kZmdlO2slHIcLE" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --se98pVVvWBXKeXxr8I4kZmdlO2slHIcLE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3KZf5ZHIMs3sj0QtSj3hKJwoXHOMywidb"; protected-headers="v1" From: "Jonathan S. Katz" To: Stephen Frost , Magnus Hagander Cc: Joe Conway , Tom Lane , Peter Eisentraut , pgsql-hackers , Noah Misch Message-ID: Subject: Re: initdb recommendations References: <96389374-9454-d26d-6f79-7c7b15ec14bd@2ndquadrant.com> <81b36e8b-e27b-ab5d-c4f0-6493771bc0ee@postgresql.org> <9f46f065-ca80-f637-8c5d-a9877bcd5eab@postgresql.org> <10093.1558664907@sss.pgh.pa.us> <20190524023009.GL2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <20190524121306.GS2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <17041a05-0e28-f2b1-bf0c-fe375af66b45@joeconway.com> <20190524121904.GU2480@tamriel.snowman.net> <20190524123317.GW2480@tamriel.snowman.net> In-Reply-To: <20190524123317.GW2480@tamriel.snowman.net> --3KZf5ZHIMs3sj0QtSj3hKJwoXHOMywidb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/24/19 8:33 AM, Stephen Frost wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > * Magnus Hagander (magnus@hagander.net) wrote: >> The thing that will potentially hit *end users* is when the RPMs, DEBs= or >> Windows Installers switch to SCRAM (because of clients with older driv= ers). >=20 > Agreed. I'm not sure that our change to SCRAM as default would actuall= y > make them change... It might, but I'm not sure and it's really a bit o= f > a different discussion in any case because we need to provide info abou= t > how to go about making the migration. Yeah, that's the key piece. Even with (almost) all the drivers now supporting SCRAM, the re-hashing from md5 =3D> scram-sha-256 does not com= e automatically. >> Making the default change away from trust in the source distro will af= fect >> few people. >=20 > Agreed. +1 >> Making the default change of password_encryption -> scram will affect = a >> *lot* of people. That one needs to be more carefully coordinated. Per some of the upthread comments though, if we go down this path we should at least make the packagers abundantly aware if we do change the default. I think some of the work they do could help ease the upgrade pai= n. > We need to provide better documentation about how to get from md5 to > SCRAM, in my view. I'm not sure where that should live, exactly. > I really wish we had put more effort into making the migration easy to > do over a period of time, and we might actually have to do that before > the packagers would be willing to make that change. +100...I think we should do this regardless, and I was already thinking of writing something up around it. I would even suggest that we have said password upgrade documentation backpatched to 10. Jonathan --3KZf5ZHIMs3sj0QtSj3hKJwoXHOMywidb-- --se98pVVvWBXKeXxr8I4kZmdlO2slHIcLE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE+oS2la8r95ogZD/x8QSccp8cZScFAlzn6eUACgkQ8QSccp8c ZSfAzQ//Xai+6nGVZmbqJNTjbMW47Fvhfv1wBaYO99l9At+ELMg9GfmQc6lgo6Ab skad8AGpXSf4npnVJ4WfCoOtjDBivgWF+LLf2paUxmork7F+92Nx2qpEeKleuo4m gWSpcIb0Cn0Z6JaCUBZv+aT/tGOxXFoBQ5+8Ckr81Tw2NvpHqEcX/xBDzEm+Mi9F fmOLvuOHuLly1Ym6sHuRP1A9wHK7Ku/XnregeRvhwuTbM5hRZTtKsrXzCSAujsJp Zbuqug4RnU65V0WjtGmGAU3aLToP92bv4miI+BALpMdZNEYY73+5DV4eQY/yVTI5 Rs+j+f0Wm97ifmhaoBINYe9pM0OOSWbHgOVUYIq+LzpHA85YtxH+DtBliMjPTR3W RPwtg6XW44dLV2qxWAw3I7ij4sgnC45OfdZmxIzMiVX6/9HMOB6PgAS+oQ1HRSWK LGotD0ds59qTMPxNVF4KZyRlcMS6m2hjmUmv7hS+F+PzLOdLB27PkUYzhnAj1ZQk nsEnDi4YzY1EqRTP9ffpi1snmRKJm+aUggNDHASvXy587P/jABaTalJE2lPCx/6r 6Y7mYRdUyPLZhfBzx08Xx2NqyknT8pVWnwvV9RDMUfHJoS7jiBK1/PoKS4wW7eOU z4K7tXa5poRpELPPMSFvDu8JmIuhR43Cqgfz6LmnPyNxBEeQY4o= =ijjS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --se98pVVvWBXKeXxr8I4kZmdlO2slHIcLE--