From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
To: Jeff Davis <pgsql@j-davis.com>
cc: Regina Obe <lr@pcorp.us>,
        "'Peter Eisentraut'" <peter.eisentraut@enterprisedb.com>,
        "'Sandro Santilli'" <strk@kbt.io>, pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org
Subject: Re: Order changes in PG16 since ICU introduction
In-reply-to: <f83f089ee1e9acd5dbbbf3353294d24e1f196e95.camel@j-davis.com>
References: <000b01d97465$c34bbd60$49e33820$@pcorp.us> <3353947.1682092131@sss.pgh.pa.us> <ZELDOktA75yYG4Z2@hst.kbt.io> <533d93c5-f604-8e5f-4a48-975c08c53d59@enterprisedb.com> <3365333.1682098091@sss.pgh.pa.us> <002d01d97477$f0395640$d0ac02c0$@pcorp.us> <3367226.1682099185@sss.pgh.pa.us> <003b01d9747a$910471c0$b30d5540$@pcorp.us> <3368986.1682099982@sss.pgh.pa.us> <000001d9747d$066b7560$13426020$@pcorp.us> <3372735.1682101425@sss.pgh.pa.us> <f83f089ee1e9acd5dbbbf3353294d24e1f196e95.camel@j-davis.com>
Comments: In-reply-to Jeff Davis <pgsql@j-davis.com>
	message dated "Fri, 21 Apr 2023 12:25:00 -0700"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <3391931.1682107209.1@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 16:00:09 -0400
Message-ID: <3391932.1682107209@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Archived-At: <https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/3391932.1682107209%40sss.pgh.pa.us>
Precedence: bulk

Jeff Davis <pgsql@j-davis.com> writes:
> I have a couple ideas:

> 1. Introduce a "none" provider to separate the concept of C/POSIX
> locales from the libc provider. It's not really using a provider
> anyway, it's just using memcmp(), and I think it causes confusion to
> combine them. Saying "LOCALE_PROVIDER=none" is less error-prone than
> "LOCALE_PROVIDER=libc LOCALE='C'".

I think I might like this idea, except for one thing: you're imagining
that the locale doesn't control anything except string comparisons.
What about to_upper/to_lower, character classifications in regexes, etc?
(I'm not sure whether those operations can get redirected to ICU today
or whether they still always go to libc, but we'll surely want to fix
it eventually if the latter is still true.)

In any case, that seems somewhat orthogonal to what we're on about here,
which is making the behavior of CREATE DATABASE less surprising and more
backwards-compatible.  I'm not sure that provider=none can help with that.
Aside from the user-surprise issues discussed up to now, pg_dump scripts
emitted by pre-v15 pg_dump are not going to contain LOCALE_PROVIDER
clauses in CREATE DATABASE, and people are going to be very unhappy
if that means they suddenly get totally different locale semantics
after restoring into a new DB.  I think we need some plan for mapping
libc-style locale specs into ICU locales so that we can make that
more nearly transparent.

> 2. Change the CREATE DATABASE syntax to catch these errors better at
> the possible expense of backwards compatibility.

That is the exact opposite of what I think we need.  Backwards
compatibility isn't optional.

Maybe this means we are not ready to do ICU-by-default in v16.
It certainly feels like there might be more here than we want to
start designing post-feature-freeze.

			regards, tom lane