Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 14:10:39 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kevin Grittner <kgrittn@ymail.com>
Reply-To: Kevin Grittner <kgrittn@ymail.com>
To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>,
 Peter Geoghegan <pg@heroku.com>, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com>
Cc: Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>, Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>,
 Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com>, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>,
 Andres Freund <andres@anarazel.de>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
 Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>,
 Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net>,
 "pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
 pgsql-core <pgsql-core@postgresql.org>
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In-Reply-To: <5573B34F.1090007@commandprompt.com>
References: <5573B34F.1090007@commandprompt.com>
Subject: Re: [CORE] Restore-reliability mode
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Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> On 06/06/2015 07:14 PM, Peter Geoghegan wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Perhaps we're honoring this more in the breech than in the
>>> observance, but I'm not making up what Tom has said about this:
>>>
>>> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/27310.1251410965@sss.pgh.pa.us

That's 9.0 release discussion:

| I think that the traditional criterion is that we don't release beta1
| as long as there are any known issues that might force an initdb.
| We were successful in avoiding a post-beta initdb this time, although
| IIRC the majority of release cycles have had one --- so maybe you
| could argue that that's not so important.  It would certainly be
| less important if we had working pg_migrator functionality to ease
| the pain of going from beta to final.

>>> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/19174.1299782543@sss.pgh.pa.us

That's 9.1 release discussion:

| Historically we've declared it beta once we think we are done with
| initdb-forcing problems.

| In any case, the existence of pg_upgrade means that "might we need
| another initdb?" is not as strong a consideration as it once was, so
| I'm not sure if we should still use that as a criterion.  I don't know
| quite what "ready for beta" should mean otherwise, though.

>>> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/3413.1301154369@sss.pgh.pa.us

Also 9.1, it is listed as one criterion:

| * No open issues that are expected to result in a catversion bump.
| (With pg_upgrade, this is not as critical as it used to be, but
| I still think catalog stability is a good indicator of a release's
| maturity)

>>> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/3261.1401915832@sss.pgh.pa.us

Here we jump to 9.4 discussion:

| > Agreed. Additionally I also agree with Stefan that the price of a initdb
| > during beta isn't that high these days.
|
| Yeah, if nothing else it gives testers another opportunity to exercise
| pg_upgrade ;-).  The policy about post-beta1 initdb is "avoid if
| practical", not "avoid at all costs".

So I think these examples show that the policy has shifted from a
pretty strong requirement to "it's probably nice if" status, with
some benefits seen in pg_upgrade testing to actually having a bump.

>> Of course, not doing a catversion bump after beta1 doesn't necessarily
>> have much value in and of itself. *Promising* to not do a catversion
>> bump, and then usually keeping that promise definitely has a certain
>> value, but clearly we are incapable of that.

As someone who was able to bring up a new production application on
8.2 because it was all redundant data and not yet mission-critical,
I appreciate that in very rate circumstances that combination could
have benefit.  But really, how often are people in that position?

> It seems to me that a cat bump during Alpha or Beta should be absolutely
> fine and reservedly fine respectively. Where we should absolutely not
> cat bump unless there is absolutely no other choice is during and RC.

+1 on all of that.  And for a while now we've been talking about an
alpha test release, right?

--
Kevin Grittner
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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