Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2023 09:24:31 -0500
From: Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>
To: Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
	"Fujii.Yuki@df.MitsubishiElectric.co.jp" <Fujii.Yuki@df.mitsubishielectric.co.jp>,
	Alexander Pyhalov <a.pyhalov@postgrespro.ru>,
	Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>,
	PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
	"Finnerty, Jim" <jfinnert@amazon.com>,
	Andres Freund <andres@anarazel.de>,
	Tomas Vondra <tomas.vondra@enterprisedb.com>,
	Julien Rouhaud <rjuju123@gmail.com>,
	Daniel Gustafsson <daniel@yesql.se>
Subject: Re: Partial aggregates pushdown
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Greetings,

* Robert Haas (robertmhaas@gmail.com) wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023 at 4:23=E2=80=AFPM Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrot=
e:
> > Well, one of the founding principles of postgres_fdw was to be able
> > to talk to PG servers that are not of the same version as yours.
> > If we break that in the name of performance, we are going to have
> > a lot of unhappy users.  Even the ones who do get the benefit of
> > the speedup are going to be unhappy when it breaks because they
> > didn't upgrade local and remote at exactly the same time.
>=20
> I agree with this.

+1.  We do want to continue to make this work- to the extent possible.
I don't think there's any problem with saying that when talking to an
older server, you don't get the same capabilities as you do when talking
to a newer server.

> > Just because we'd like to have it doesn't make the patch workable
> > in the real world.
>=20
> And also with this in concept - I'd like to plan arbitrarily
> complicated queries perfectly and near-instantly, and then execute
> them at faster-than-light speed, but we can't. However, I don't
> understand the fatalism with respect to the feature at hand. As I said
> before, it's not like no other product has made this work. Sure, some
> of those products may not have the extensible system of data types
> that we do, or may not care about cross-version communication, but
> those don't seem like good enough reasons to just immediately give up.

Certainly there are other projects out there which are based on PG that
have managed to make this work and work really quite well.

> TBH, I suspect even some PG forks have made this work, like maybe PGXC
> or PGXL, although I don't know for certain. We might not like the
> trade-offs they made to get there, but we haven't even talked through
> possible design ideas yet, so it seems way too early to give up.

Yes, Citus[1] and Greenplum[2], to just name two.

I certainly understand the concern around the security of this and would
have thought the approach we'd use would be to not just take internal
state and pass it along but rather to provide a way for aggregates to
opt-in to supporting this and have them serialize/deserialize with
new dedicated functions that have appropriate checks to avoid bad things
happening.  That could also be versioned, perhaps, if we feel that's
necessary (I'm a bit skeptical, but it would hopefully address the
concern about different versions having different data that they want to
pass along).

> One of the things that I think is a problem in this area is that the
> ways we have to configure FDW connections are just not very rich.

Agreed.

> We're trying to cram everything into a set of strings that can be
> attached to the foreign server or the user mapping, but that's not a
> very good fit for something like how all the local SQL functions that
> might exist map onto all of the remote SQL functions that might exist.
> Now you might well say that we don't want the act of configuring a
> foreign data wrapper to be insanely complicated, and I would agree
> with that. But, on the other hand, as Larry Wall once said, a good
> programming language makes simple things simple and complicated things
> possible. I think our current configuration system is only
> accomplishing the first of those goals.

We've already got issues in this area with extensions- there's no way
for a user to say what version of an extension exists on the remote side
and no way for an extension to do anything different based on that
information.  Perhaps we could work on a solution to both of these
issues, but at the least I don't see holding back on this effort for a
problem that already exists but which we've happily accepted because of
the benefit it provides, like being able to push-down postgis bounding
box conditionals to allow for indexed lookups.

Thanks,

Stephen

[1]: https://docs.citusdata.com/en/v11.1/develop/reference_sql.html
[2]: https://postgresconf.org/conferences/Beijing/program/proposals/impleme=
ntation-of-distributed-aggregation-in-greenplum

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