Received: from maia.hub.org (maia-3.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26A3133740B for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:25:34 -0400 (AST) Received: from mail.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.86]) by maia.hub.org (mx1.hub.org [200.46.204.243]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41926-04 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:25:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 01:00:45.776072 by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from asmtpout013.mac.com (asmtpout013.mac.com [17.148.16.88]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4471337B9C for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:25:26 -0400 (AST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_G+8cxnaBbzv9v5BHOK4TqA)" Received: from spool003.mac.com ([10.150.69.53]) by asmtp013.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u4-20.01 64bit (built Nov 21 2010)) with ESMTP id <0LG300AFSK0VCN90@asmtp013.mac.com> for pgsql-performance@postgresql.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:24:32 -0800 (PST) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15,1.0.148,0.0.0000 definitions=2011-02-04_05:2011-02-04, 2011-02-04, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1012030000 definitions=main-1102040062 Received: from localhost ([10.150.79.226]) by spool003.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0LG3005XGK0VCV60@spool003.mac.com>; Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:24:31 -0800 (PST) X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=6.0.2-1012030000 definitions=main-1102040062 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.2.15,1.0.148,0.0.0000 definitions=2011-02-04_05:2011-02-04, 2011-02-04, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 To: mladen.gogala@vmsinfo.com Cc: tivv00@gmail.com, pgsql-performance From: Frank Heikens Subject: Re: Talking about optimizer, my long dream Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 14:24:30 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: MobileMe Mail (1C3224) Message-id: <87f423d3-5ba1-e083-89a9-b034d031cc77@me.com> In-reply-to: <4D4C0590.1050609@vmsinfo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.1 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.897 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, T_TO_NO_BRKTS_FREEMAIL=0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Archive-Number: 201102/193 X-Sequence-Number: 42331 --Boundary_(ID_G+8cxnaBbzv9v5BHOK4TqA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 04 Feb, 2011,at 02:56 PM, Mladen Gogala wrot= e: > =D0=92=D1=96=D1=82=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=96=D0=B9 =D0=A2=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=87=D0=B8= =D1=88=D0=B8=D0=BD wrote: > > Hi, all. > > > > All this optimizer vs hint thread > There is no "optimizer vs. hint". Hints are a necessary part of the > optimizer in all other databases.=20 =20 That has nothing to do with PostgreSQL: PostgreSQL =3D PostgreSQL. And it d= oesn't have hints and everybody knows it. > Without hints Postgres will not get > used in the company that I work for, period.=20 =20 That's up to you, that's fine. But why did you start with PostgreSQL in the= first place? You knew PostgreSQL doesn't have hints and the wiki told you = hints are not wanted as well. When hints are an essential requirement for y= our company, you should pick another product, EnterpriseDB Postgres Plus fo= r example. > I was willing to wait but > the fatwa against hints seems unyielding,=20 =20 There is no fatwa. The PostgreSQL project prefers to spend resources on a b= etter optimizer to solve the real problems, not on hints for working around= the problems. That has nothing to do with any fatwa or religion. > so that's it. I am even > inclined to believe that deep down under the hood, this fatwa has an > ulterior motive, which disgusts me deeply. With hints, there would be > far fewer consulting gigs. =20 The consulting guys are the ones who love hints: They know they have to com= e back the other month because the old hint does more harm than good when d= ata changes. And data will change over time. You said it's so simple to implement hints in PostgreSQL, so please, show u= s. Or ask/pay somebody to write this simple code for you to support hints, = nobody will ever stop you from doing that. When you have a use case that pr= oves the usage of hints will improve the performance of PostgreSQL and you = have some code that can be maintained by the PostgreSQL project, it might b= e implemented in the contrib or even core. It's up to you, not somebody els= e.=EF=BB=BF > > > Mladen Gogala > Sr. Oracle DBA > 1500 Broadway > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 329-5251 > www.vmsinfo.com > > > --=20 > Sent via pgsql-performance mailing list (pgsql-performance@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-performance --Boundary_(ID_G+8cxnaBbzv9v5BHOK4TqA) Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 04 Feb, 2011,at 02:56 PM, Mladen Gog= ala <mladen.gogala@vmsinfo.com> wrote:

=D0=92=D1=96=D1= =82=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=96=D0=B9 =D0=A2=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=87=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B8=D0= =BD wrote:
> Hi, all.
>
> All this optimizer vs hint thread
There is no "optimizer vs. hint". Hints are a necessary part of the
optimizer in all other databases.
 
That has nothing to do with PostgreSQL: PostgreSQL =3D Po= stgreSQL. And it doesn't have hints and everybody knows it.
<= br>
Without hints Postgres will not get
used in the company that I work for, period.
 
That's up to you, that's fine. But why did you= start with PostgreSQL in the first place? You knew PostgreSQL doesn't have= hints and the wiki told you hints are not wanted as well. When hints are a= n essential requirement for your company, you should pick another product, = EnterpriseDB Postgres Plus for example.

I was willing to= wait but
the fatwa against hints seems unyielding,
&n= bsp;
There is no fatwa. The PostgreSQL project prefers= to spend resources on a better optimizer to solve the real problems, not o= n hints for working around the problems. That has nothing to do with any fa= twa or religion.

so that's it. I am even
inclined to believe that deep down under the hood, this fatwa has an
ulterior motive, which disgusts me deeply. With hints, there would be
far fewer consulting gigs.
 
<= /div>
The consulting guys are the ones who love hints: They know they h= ave to come back the other month because the old hint does more harm than g= ood when data changes. And data will change over time.

You said it's so simple to implement hints in PostgreSQL, so pleas= e, show us. Or ask/pay somebody to write this simple code for you to suppor= t hints, nobody will ever stop you from doing that. When you have a use cas= e that proves the usage of hints will improve the performance of PostgreSQL= and you have some code that can be maintained by the PostgreSQL project, i= t might be implemented in the contrib or even core. It's up to you, not som= ebody else.



Mladen Gogala
Sr. Oracle DBA
1500 Broadway
New York, NY 10036
(212) 329-5251
www= .vmsinfo.com


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