From Premsun@nsasia.co.th Thu Aug  18 02:56:58 2005
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Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:56:35 +0700
From: "Premsun Choltanwanich" <Premsun@nsasia.co.th>
To: <pgsql-sql@postgresql.org>
Subject: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
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Dear All,
=20
     I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as database =
to my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind on database =
security. I understand that everybody  who get my application database =
will be have a full control permission on my database in case that =
PostgreSQL already installed on their computer and they are an administrato=
r on PostgreSQL. So that mean data, structure and any ideas contain in =
database will does not secure on this point. Is my understanding correct?
=20
     What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise.


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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I&nbsp;need to&nbsp;distribute my application=
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have some questions in my mind&nbsp;on database security. I understand =
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From deruvo@gmail.com Thu Aug  18 03:32:28 2005
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Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 23:32:21 -0400
From: Pascual De Ruvo <deruvo@gmail.com>
To: Premsun Choltanwanich <Premsun@nsasia.co.th>
Subject: Re: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
Cc: pgsql-sql@postgresql.org
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On 8/17/05, Premsun Choltanwanich <Premsun@nsasia.co.th> wrote:
> =20
> Dear All,=20
>  =20
>      I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as database =
to
> my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind on database
> security. I understand that everybody  who get my application database wi=
ll
> be have a full control permission on my database in case that PostgreSQL
> already installed on their computer and they are an administrator on
> PostgreSQL. So that mean data, structure and any ideas contain in databas=
e
> will does not secure on this point. Is my understanding correct?=20
>  =20
>      What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise.=20

If your customer has the root password of the machine that is running
postgresql, there's nothing you can do in order to limit the access to
the database structure.

My recommendation is: show them the code, make it free!



From lawgon@thenilgiris.com Thu Aug  18 04:21:14 2005
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From: Kenneth Gonsalves <lawgon@thenilgiris.com>
To: pgsql-sql@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:51:03 +0530
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On Thursday 18 Aug 2005 8:26 am, Premsun Choltanwanich wrote:
> Dear All,
>
>      I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as
> database to my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind
> on database security. I understand that everybody  who get my
> application database will be have a full control permission on my
> database in case that PostgreSQL already installed on their
> computer and they are an administrator on PostgreSQL. So that mean
> data, structure and any ideas contain in database will does not
> secure on this point. Is my understanding correct?

correct
>
>      What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise.
no way - you could try to frighten him so much that he is afraid to=20
touch anything. Or you could educate him so that he can creatively=20
touch some parts of it and ease your burden of support and=20
maintainence. Also enter into a proper license agreement with him so=20
that he doesnt redistribute or hijack your ideas and your code. In=20
the long run, if you follow this course, you will find that you will=20
be able to serve your customers more effectively

=2D-=20
regards
kg

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lawgon
tally ho! http://avsap.org.in
=E0=B2=87=E0=B2=82=E0=B2=A1=E0=B3=8D=E0=B2=B2=E0=B2=BF=E0=B2=A8=E0=B2=95=E0=
=B3=8D=E0=B2=B8 =E0=AE=B5=E0=AE=BE=E0=AE=B4=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=95!



From chris@travelamericas.com Thu Aug  18 05:27:02 2005
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Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:26:59 -0700
From: Chris Travers <chris@travelamericas.com>
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To: Premsun Choltanwanich <Premsun@nsasia.co.th>,
	pgsql-sql <pgsql-sql@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
References: <s3045b5b.070@mail.nsasia.co.th>
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Premsun Choltanwanich wrote:

> Dear All,
>  
>      I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as 
> database to my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind on 
> database security. I understand that everybody  who get my application 
> database will be have a full control permission on my database in case 
> that PostgreSQL already installed on their computer and they are an 
> administrator on PostgreSQL. So that mean data, structure and any 
> ideas contain in database will does not secure on this point. Is my 
> understanding correct?
>  
>      What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise.

If your customer can access the data, they can access the data.  If they 
have control over the system, they can access the system.

I guess you could build some sort of encryption into your client, but 
that seems pretty easy to circumvent.

The short answer is that there is no good way to do this.  If you are 
worried about this, the technology isn't going to save you.  No 
technology will save you.  Instead, I would highly suggest discussing 
the matter with an attourney and see if there is a legal remedy that 
might provide adequate protection.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Metatron Technology Consulting



From cbbrowne@acm.org Thu Aug  18 13:50:13 2005
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From: Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org>
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Subject: Re: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:58:07 -0400
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	<43041C23.6050908@travelamericas.com>
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> Premsun Choltanwanich wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>       I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as
>> database to my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind
>> on database security. I understand that everybody  who get my
>> application database will be have a full control permission on my
>> database in case that PostgreSQL already installed on their computer
>> and they are an administrator on PostgreSQL. So that mean data,
>> structure and any ideas contain in database will does not secure on
>> this point. Is my understanding correct?
>>       What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise.
>
> If your customer can access the data, they can access the data.  If
> they have control over the system, they can access the system.
>
> I guess you could build some sort of encryption into your client, but
> that seems pretty easy to circumvent.
>
> The short answer is that there is no good way to do this.  If you are
> worried about this, the technology isn't going to save you.  No
> technology will save you.  Instead, I would highly suggest discussing
> the matter with an attourney and see if there is a legal remedy that
> might provide adequate protection.

It looks as though the Original Poster is in Thailand; if the customer
is elsewhere in Asia, it might become challenging to find a context
where "legal jurisdiction" or "legal remedy" are well enough defined
for this to work out well.

It may be that the prime issue is whether or not the customer is
trustworthy or not; if the answer is "not," and legal remedies are not
easy to get, then there are essentially two choices:

1.  Do not distribute the database.

The customer must access the database from the vendor's site.  

At the extreme end of this, the application would not directly submit
database queries, but rather redefine the application in a
client/server fashion where the customer side submits requests via
some protocol that does not expose anything about the database schema.

2.  If the customer is REALLY not able to be trusted, then maybe they
can't be a customer.
-- 
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.



From fmiddleton@verizon.net Thu Aug  18 23:35:28 2005
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Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:36:48 -0400
From: Ferindo Middleton Jr <fmiddleton@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: How to secure PostgreSQL Data for distribute?
To: Premsun@nsasia.co.th, pgsql-sql@postgresql.org
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On 8/17/05, Premsun Choltanwanich <Premsun@nsasia.co.th> wrote:

>>  
>> Dear All, 
>>   
>>      I need to distribute my application that use PostgreSQL as database to
>> my customer. But I still have some questions in my mind on database
>> security. I understand that everybody  who get my application database will
>> be have a full control permission on my database in case that PostgreSQL
>> already installed on their computer and they are an administrator on
>> PostgreSQL. So that mean data, structure and any ideas contain in database
>> will does not secure on this point. Is my understanding correct? 
>>   
>>      What is the good way to make it all secure? Please advise. 
>  
>
    If it is "your" database, then  I would not give them the database, 
but merely offer the information in the database as a "service." This, 
of course, can be implemented through the internet. That way, the rules 
that govern which customers can access and see which pieces of data can 
be implemented in the application itself so you wouldn't have give them 
all the data and structure the customer doesn't need to see if the rules 
governing how they access the database from the application are built 
into the application itself, with possibly authentication credentials 
stored in the database and the athentication mechanism implemented in 
the application.
    The only other way I can imagine where you can get beyond, atleast 
not showing the  data they don't need to see, is querying the database 
to filter out the data 'belonging' to the customer, and export that 
filtered data to isolated tables comprising a new database that could 
then be given to the customer, watered down to what's relevant to them.
    If it's "your" database then, hey, don't give it to them. If it's 
really "their" database then you wouldn't really have a problem with 
giving them their data... But it's apparently not really "their" 
database so keep it to yourself and offer access to the data as a service.

Ferindo

-- 
Ferindo Middleton
Chief Architect
Sleekcollar.com