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[80.187.110.42]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm1510839wmg.29.2019.10.20.09.01.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EA64568B-A73C-40C1-AE5B-C352AD4FC59D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Olga Kalinina Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 18:01:57 +0200 Message-Id: <3C2BE78C-C1C9-4A8A-9206-BDFB7D15322B@googlemail.com> References: Cc: Valeria Kaplan , pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org In-Reply-To: To: Katherine Mcmillan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail-EA64568B-A73C-40C1-AE5B-C352AD4FC59D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, I also was in the session and I basically agree with everyone in this thread= : the question was not friendly and poorly phrased, but it could have been h= andled more gracefully and less emotionally (especially since the speaker ha= d an excellent answer which probably did not get across too well in the hast= e). Since this is the question that will most probably come up again and again, I= think we should be prepared to answer it over and over again (not only in t= alks but also in private conversations), and collecting references and mater= ial will definitely help. I think this mailing list is an excellent opportun= ity to share these things. Everyone will feel more confident having back-up e= vidence.=20 On a side note, maybe room hosts could sometimes more actively moderate disc= ussions preventing these too long questions? The speaker is just too engaged= and it can feel uncomfortable for her to interrupt a question.=20 Finally, I=E2=80=99d like to thank Ilaria, L=C3=A6titia and Renee for prepar= ing the talk and generally for standing up for women in the community (and e= veryone else involved of course), and Katie for hosting the session! Great j= ob! Best, Olga=20 > On 20. Oct 2019, at 16:26, Katherine Mcmillan wrote:= >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi all, >=20 > As you may not be aware, we had run out of time on that talk, and because t= he speakers were over at the side addressing this man's question, they were u= nable to see that the time had run out. The talk was 3 minutes over-time, a= nd the question/answer period had to be cut off. As a group, we were respec= tful of everyone asking questions, including this person. In fact, we let hi= m go on several minutes over time, and because his "question" went on so lon= g, it prevented another attendee at the talk from asking her question, despi= te her having her hand raised for several minutes. >=20 > I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the question= or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the aske= r for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a good job= in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my opinion, ca= me across as someone just pulling anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-affirmat= ive action rhetoric from the 1950s. He did not quote any statistics, refere= nces, or evidence in his "question", yet the talk contained qualitative, qua= ntitative, and anecdotal evidence on the issue. >=20 > Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I personally felt y= ou did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk. >=20 > Sincerely, > Katie >=20 >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan wrote: >> Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic would really b= e helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but also to those o= f us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions with colleagu= es trying to answer questions exactly like that one.=20 >>=20 >> My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it wa= s that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer.=20 >>=20 >> Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a to= pic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and that's w= here emotion may not be as helpful.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, wrote: >>> Hi all, >>>=20 >>> This is just my impression of what happened. >>>=20 >>> I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it ri= ght afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name). >>>=20 >>> If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this questio= n turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could than just have t= old him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to the importan= ce of that question and what could be done/said in such cases. >>>=20 >>> It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't targ= eted by this in exactly that talk. >>> Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that qu= estion will come up again. >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>> Stefanie >>>=20 >>> Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" : >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Valeria, >>>>=20 >>>> As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in t= ech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a wom= an" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that out,= my head was like "not that argument again". >>>>=20 >>>> And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech= here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to= be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation= . >>>>=20 >>>> The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. T= hat's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our gender= is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what data should= we rely? Facts or hypothesis? >>>>=20 >>>> Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or becau= se I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer that ques= tion and I know that question very well because it's always in my head. I fi= nally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speec= h, so I take it. >>>>=20 >>>> The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker wh= o asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They simpl= y don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'. >>>>=20 >>>> Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been= a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past e= xperiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better. >>>>=20 >>>> Have a nice day, >>>>=20 >>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>>=20 >>>>> Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a= =C3=A9crit : >>>>> Hi All, >>>>>=20 >>>>> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted= to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the confere= nce and hear your thoughts.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question f= rom one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. The quest= ion was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about incre= asing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to finish his q= uestion as the microphone has been taken from him and as he wanted to commen= t further he wasn't given a microphone back.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equali= ty in the community we must treat any questions people have with respect and= snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy that one expec= ts regardless to the gender, believe etc. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to= act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behavi= our towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actually have an o= pposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Valeria >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't t= hink to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way than se= nding this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Some quick information here : >>>>>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >>>>>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM=20 >>>>>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >>>>>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with wom= en (we're actively looking for a place) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Have a nice day, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly. --Apple-Mail-EA64568B-A73C-40C1-AE5B-C352AD4FC59D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,

I also was in the session and I basically a= gree with everyone in this thread: the question was not friendly and poorly p= hrased, but it could have been handled more gracefully and less emotionally (= especially since the speaker had an excellent answer which probably did not g= et across too well in the haste).

Since this is the question that will most probably come up again and a= gain, I think we should be prepared to answer it over and over again (not on= ly in talks but also in private conversations), and collecting references an= d material will definitely help. I think this mailing list is an excellent o= pportunity to share these things. Everyone will feel more confident having b= ack-up evidence. 

On a= side note, maybe room hosts could sometimes more actively moderate discussi= ons preventing these too long questions? The speaker is just too engaged and= it can feel uncomfortable for her to interrupt a question. 

Finally, I=E2=80=99d like to thank Ila= ria, L=C3=A6titia and Renee for preparing the talk and generally for standin= g up for women in the community (and everyone else involved of course), and K= atie for hosting the session! Great job!

Best,
Olga 
<= br>
On 20. Oct 2019, at 16:26, Katherine Mcmillan &= lt;kmcmi046@uottawa.ca> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi all,

<= div>As you may not be aware, we had run out of time on that talk, and becaus= e the speakers were over at the side addressing this man's question, they we= re unable to see that the time had run out.  The talk was 3 minutes ove= r-time, and the question/answer period had to be cut off.  As a group, w= e were respectful of everyone asking questions, including this person. In fa= ct, we let him go on several minutes over time, and because his "question" w= ent on so long, it prevented another attendee at the talk from asking her qu= estion, despite her having her hand raised for several minutes.
I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of t= he question or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted wi= th the asker for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did= a good job in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my o= pinion, came across as someone just pulling anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/ant= i-affirmative action rhetoric from the 1950s.  He did not quote any sta= tistics, references, or evidence in his "question", yet the talk contained q= ualitative, quantitative, and anecdotal evidence on the issue.
Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I persona= lly felt you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk.
Sincerely,
Katie

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 8:43 AM V= aleria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com&g= t; wrote:
Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic w= ould really be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but a= lso to those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions= with colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that one. 

My issue was more about way t= he interaction was handled and I guess it was that question that triggered a= quite emotionally charged answer. 

Sometimes the emotion is goo= d, it shows that you're passionate about a topic but sometimes the focus sho= uld be on the question and answer and that's where emotion may not be as hel= pful. 


On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6= lting, <m= ail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrote:
Hi all,

This is just my impression of wha= t happened.

I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I= only got it right afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot t= he name).

If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case= this question turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could th= an just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed t= o the importance of that question and what could be done/said in such cases.=

It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't t= argeted by this in exactly that talk.
Maybe we should put some sources to= gether and point to them when that question will come up again.

Cheer= s
Stefanie

Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59= MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" <laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>= :
Hi Valeria,

A= s I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech, I= got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a woman" as= sertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that out, my he= ad was like "not that argument again".

And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind o= f speech here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres w= omen to be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conve= rsation.

The thing about t= hat is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's n= ot questionable. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or ag= ainst us during the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypo= thesis?

Am I selected bec= ause my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known i= n the community?  There is no way to answer that question and I know th= at question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decided that= it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, so I take it.

The other thing I'd like t= o ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who asks himself if he was select= ed because he's a white man?". No. They simply don't put it that way because= being a white man is the 'default'.

Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might ha= ve been a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wron= g past experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get bett= er.

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
Le ven. 18 o= ct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> a =C3=A9crit=  :
Hi All,

In light= of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted to raise an i= ssue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the conference and he= ar your thoughts. 

During a Postgres Women Q&a= mp;A session at pgconf.eu there was a question from one of the attendee= s that I don't think was handled very well. The question was from a guy who r= aised, in my opinion, a very valid point about increasing the number of fema= le speakers at events. He wasn't able to finish his question as the micropho= ne has been taken from him and as he wanted to comment further he wasn't giv= en a microphone back. 

This actually made me f= eel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equality in the community we must t= reat any questions people have with respect and snatching a microphone from t= hem is a lack of basic courtesy that one expects regardless to the gend= er, believe etc.

Postgres Women is a fantastic init= iative and I think the key is not to act towards the majority in a way that w= e wouldn't tolerate as their behaviour towards minority. This might send a w= rong message and actually have an opposite effect than what we are trying to= achieve in the community. 

Sincerely,
Valeria


<= div dir=3D"ltr">

=


On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot <laetitia.avrot@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

As I'm= still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't think to take= people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way than sending this i= nvitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time.

Some quick in= formation here :
- the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of y= our drinks
- the dinner time is 7:30 PM 
- the restaurant is = ;Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed)
- before the dinne= r, we'll find a place to have a drink only with women (we're actively lookin= g for a place)

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia=

--
Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print res= ponsibly.
= --Apple-Mail-EA64568B-A73C-40C1-AE5B-C352AD4FC59D--