Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLmuU-0001pq-Bp for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:28:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLmuS-0005dX-MP for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:28:36 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLmuS-0005dP-G6 for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:28:36 +0000 Received: from dd43212.kasserver.com ([85.13.161.146]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLmuO-0002f6-MR for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:28:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (unknown [109.116.163.136]) by dd43212.kasserver.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 228985540124; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:28:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 13:28:29 +0200 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----1USZDELU7LII68M7U6X1H4C6KUEPVW" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu To: pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org,=?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=E6titia_Avrot?= ,Valeria Kaplan From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Stefanie_Janine_St=F6lting?= Message-ID: <7940600A-E43B-4F6A-B004-D469E4BA73D7@stefanie-stoelting.de> List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk ------1USZDELU7LII68M7U6X1H4C6KUEPVW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, This is just my impression of what happened=2E I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened=2E I only got it ri= ght afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name)=2E If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this question = turns up=2E=2E=2E" it would have been a different case, we could than just = have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to the i= mportance of that question and what could be done/said in such cases=2E It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't target= ed by this in exactly that talk=2E Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that ques= tion will come up again=2E Cheers Stefanie Am 19=2E Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" : >Hi Valeria, > >As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in >tech, >I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a >woman" >assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that >out, my >head was like "not that argument again"=2E > >And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech >here at pgconfeu this year=2E I felt like I didn't want new postgres >women to >be confronted with that so soon=2E That's why I ended firmly the >conversation=2E > >The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs=2E >That's a fact and it's not questionable=2E We have no way to know if our >gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what >data >should we rely? Facts or hypothesis? > >Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or >because >I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer that >question and I know that question very well because it's always in my >head=2E >I finally decided that it didn't matter=2E I'm me and people give me room >to >speech, so I take it=2E > >The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker >who >asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?"=2E No=2E They >simply >don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'=2E > >Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been >a >bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong >past >experiences=2E Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get >better=2E > >Have a nice day, > >L=C3=A6titia > >Le ven=2E 18 oct=2E 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a =C3=A9crit >: > >> Hi All, >> >> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just >wanted to >> raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the >conference >> and hear your thoughts=2E >> >> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf=2Eeu there was a question >> from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well=2E >The >> question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point >about >> increasing the number of female speakers at events=2E He wasn't able to >> finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as >he >> wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back=2E >> >> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want >equality >> in the community we must treat any questions people have with respect >and >> snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy that one >> expects regardless to the gender, believe etc=2E >> >> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not >to act >> towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their >behaviour >> towards minority=2E This might send a wrong message and actually have >an >> opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community=2E >> >> Sincerely, >> Valeria >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot > >> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't >>> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other >way than >>> sending this invitation here to everyone=2E We'll get better next >time=2E >>> >>> Some quick information here : >>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM >>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with >women >>> (we're actively looking for a place) >>> >>> Have a nice day, >>> >>> L=C3=A6titia >>> >>> -- >>> *Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees=2E Please print responsibly=2E* >>> >> ------1USZDELU7LII68M7U6X1H4C6KUEPVW Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,

This is just my impression of what = happened=2E

I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened= =2E I only got it right afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, f= orgot the name)=2E

If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I = do in case this question turns up=2E=2E=2E" it would have been a different = case, we could than just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we wo= uld have pointed to the importance of that question and what could be done/= said in such cases=2E

It's fair enough to come up with that question= as someone who isn't targeted by this in exactly that talk=2E
Maybe we = should put some sources together and point to them when that question will = come up again=2E

Cheers
Stefanie

Am 19=2E Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" <laet= itia=2Eavrot@gmail=2Ecom>:
Hi Valeria,

As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech= , I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a woman= " assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that out, = my head was like "not that argument again"=2E

And I know for a fact that several women were given t= hat kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year=2E I felt like I didn't want = new postgres women to be confronted with that so soon=2E That's why I ended= firmly the conversation=2E

The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs=2E= That's a fact and it's not questionable=2E We have no way to know if our g= ender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what data = should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?

Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman= or because I'm now well-known in the community?  There is no way to a= nswer that question and I know that question very well because it's always = in my head=2E I finally decided that it didn't matter=2E I'm me and people = give me room to speech, so I take it=2E

The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white mal= e speaker who asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?"=2E= No=2E They simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the '= default'=2E

Finally, I t= otally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emoti= onal because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences=2E = Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better=2E

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

Le ven=2E 18 oct=2E 2019 = =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@d= ataegret=2Ecom> a =C3=A9crit :
Hi All,
<= br>
In light of openness and acceptance within our community I ju= st wanted to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session = at the conference and hear your thoughts=2E 

= During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf=2Eeu there was a question fr= om one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well=2E The que= stion was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about in= creasing the number of female speakers at events=2E He wasn't able to finis= h his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as he wanted t= o comment further he wasn't given a microphone back=2E 

=
This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want = equality in the community we must treat any questions people have with resp= ect and snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy t= hat one expects regardless to the gender, believe etc=2E

Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not = to act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their beh= aviour towards minority=2E This might send a wrong message and actually hav= e an opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community=2E=  

Sincerely,
Valeria



=


On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia = Avrot <laetitia=2Eavrot@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
Hi all,<= div>
As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing thin= gs, I didn't think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no ot= her way than sending this invitation here to everyone=2E We'll get better n= ext time=2E

Some quick information here :
- the dinner is sponsor= , you just need to take care of your drinks
- the dinner time is 7:30 PM=  
- the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enc= losed)
- before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink on= ly with women (we're actively looking for a place)

Have a nice day,<= /div>

L=C3=A6titia

--
Paper doesn=E2= =80=99t grow on trees=2E Please print responsibly=2E
------1USZDELU7LII68M7U6X1H4C6KUEPVW--