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From: =?UTF-8?Q?L=C3=A6titia_Avrot?= <laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 12:53:36 +0200
Message-ID: 
 <CAB_COdg7k-u08SDV-rP3CTQFEdzY53ehQza0Kdd0MX6CLXvyeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What we need to do
To: Debra Cerda <dcerda@postgresql.us>
Cc: Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com>, Dian Fay <dian.m.fay@gmail.com>,
	pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org
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Hi Debra,


> For example, Women Who Code membership is restricted to women and people
> who identify as women, with men excluded from the majority of gatherings.
> This approach provides women with a comfortable space to empower one
> another and foster growth, but in my opinion alienates potential allies a=
nd
> supporters.
>

I strongly disagree with that vision. There is plenty of room for women and
men in this community (and world). To ban men from our group would send a
hostile message. The other reason is that the under-representation of women
in our comunity should matter to both men and women.


>
> On the other hand, when I had opened a dialogue last year about creating
> an international group of women in Postgres, I was met with enthusiasm
> mostly from men stating "OH! We can do this, and this, and..." Which was
> appreciated, but why not let women be the catalysts and the leaders? IMO,
> we need allies and supporters, not "white knights" -- give us guidance, b=
ut
> let us do the heavy lifting.
>
>
Again, I disagree with this vision. Anyone (men or women) that want to
force their vision to our group should be explained that it's not the way
we work. Trying to prevent that kind of behavior is being fear-controled
and to my pointof view it will only lead to bad action.
Assuming it will come from men is simply gender bias.

My vision is that we want anyone, whatever sexe they identity themself, to
be comfortable to discuss their ideas. We want smart ideas abd to have
that, we need everyone. No exclusion.

Cheers,

L=C3=A6titia

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Debra,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></di=
v><div>For example, Women Who Code membership is restricted to women and pe=
ople who identify as women, with men excluded from the majority of gatherin=
gs. This approach provides women with a comfortable space to empower one an=
other and foster growth, but in my opinion alienates potential allies and s=
upporters.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I strong=
ly disagree with that vision. There is plenty of room for women and men in =
this community (and world). To ban men from our group would send a hostile =
message. The other reason is that the under-representation of women in our =
comunity should matter to both men and women.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><br></div><div>=
On the other hand, when I had opened a dialogue last year about creating an=
 international group of women in Postgres, I was met with enthusiasm mostly=
 from men stating &quot;OH! We can do this, and this, and...&quot; Which wa=
s appreciated, but why not let women be the catalysts and the leaders? IMO,=
 we need allies and supporters, not &quot;white knights&quot; -- give us gu=
idance, but let us do the heavy lifting.</div></div><div><br></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Again, I disagree with this vision. An=
yone (men or women) that want to force their vision to our group should be =
explained that it&#39;s not the way we work. Trying to prevent that kind of=
 behavior is being fear-controled and to my pointof view it will only lead =
to bad action.<br></div><div>Assuming it will come from men is simply gende=
r bias.<br><br></div><div>My vision is that we want anyone, whatever sexe t=
hey identity themself, to be comfortable to discuss their ideas. We want sm=
art ideas abd to have that, we need everyone. No exclusion.<br><br></div><d=
iv>Cheers,<br></div><div><br> </div>L=C3=A6titia<br></div></div></div>

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