Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLjQP-00011x-Av for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:45:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLjPP-0007TB-EZ for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:44:19 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLjPP-0007T4-5p for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:44:19 +0000 Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLjPL-0000ph-0s for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:44:18 +0000 Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id b14so2496796uap.6 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 00:44:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OKmEyJD6926OBjX31BPLs6n2HgfMb3r4xDRjooSoecE=; b=el+2lrz4LKAXcFEc2vuGpK3XxmKzhNPu2c/OzD5839Wzzzwj3ejxY8Ne01o2FYVX+t efTGwNyyE0d9/0LHj9AEE074abCJBhqPwi2Y1HgcQjABj69zytixjs/JHCh7883be9Fa C8nGH+qnjYJWMaH1Qo2rnJMvjvMTu79AIyaj/A1nIzL4+j+JYA4LVrOMIGb3fEQpE5T4 W7I2wRyhG/jUzc2clkXZixdtHVgz1loZF/bMxzyFI8phWhmvVXOHdAEzsKY+nMxbGDW1 Lq6bqsIbcKkXihi6i/sU01uBcLXl7zkyMx7nOGKJqEcsU8lun5DxQKurrX4Hpl8bFFgq 9fHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OKmEyJD6926OBjX31BPLs6n2HgfMb3r4xDRjooSoecE=; b=bw6V3kEKl5Z3V0bxskTZS1t2CmXIZss9FB4VZdiHxRTuncYpsa15zqahgb0Tg+Y8MK oGbb9Xaz+qN/Xl0FIw3Gpjw2Hq3Mw/gItgc6wyzcrbiHsM9+Pcg9AgzE+AWW2FLn4usR rQVSX2GKtueQ3OSnqae77DK8VnOYPGmk3gUYMvrIK5uZJHJ9NGGAnnRwQD4VmCw/MJzM 7/mKrpAeuRLG++v2fbrDLpWq7hqs6j6AraoImlpkL6HAOvlvlat+pkkG2G4fwBWSbCwa dkac4jgWnEs5bS3X2tRql37HHJxVRr1euBu0fmIAzoL/xv8otD7goNSwwn4TafvIKyhb HX3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXwJUUBCZtE4bpkhkk/P2iPmciK7Pzk5IKlAfwfGu3H2ijzIAJL BMgC1bLNflXD2E6pVhGu3NLi4SfafZAGykPHTIsP4NDX X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyG/O5avSmEibSZcePSXwma2XhdiXaNWnO5qUEzx1zCojCFXXUunfiB4Z0s7QG8B4elCjui0UkmUqUA5p1DgpA= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5a97:: with SMTP id w23mr7716094uae.129.1571471051734; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 00:44:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?L=C3=A6titia_Avrot?= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 09:43:59 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu To: Valeria Kaplan Cc: pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d047e705953e9d5d" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --000000000000d047e705953e9d5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Valeria, As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're a woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed that out, my head was like "not that argument again". And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation= . The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypothesis? Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer that question and I know that question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, so I take it. The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'. Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better. Have a nice day, L=C3=A6titia Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a =C3= =A9crit : > Hi All, > > In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted to > raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the conferen= ce > and hear your thoughts. > > During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question > from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. The > question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point abo= ut > increasing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to > finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as he > wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back. > > This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equality > in the community we must treat any questions people have with respect and > snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy that one > expects regardless to the gender, believe etc. > > Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to ac= t > towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behaviou= r > towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actually have an > opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community. > > Sincerely, > Valeria > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't >> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way th= an >> sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time. >> >> Some quick information here : >> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM >> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with women >> (we're actively looking for a place) >> >> Have a nice day, >> >> L=C3=A6titia >> >> -- >> *Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.* >> > --000000000000d047e705953e9d5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Valeria,

= As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech,= I got the "you're not here because you're good but because yo= u're a woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the g= uy pointed that out, my head was like "not that argument again".<= /div>

And I know for a fact th= at several women were given that kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year.= I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to be confronted with tha= t so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation.

The thing about that is we work hard to = give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's not questionab= le. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or against us dur= ing the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?

Am I selected because my ab= stract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known i= n the community?=C2=A0 There is no way to answer that question and I know t= hat question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decide= d that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, = so I take it.

The other = thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who ask= s himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They = simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'defa= ult'.

Finally, I tot= ally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emotion= al because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences. Than= k you for having pointed that out and we'll get better.

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3= =A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataeg= ret.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Hi All,

=
In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted= to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at th= e conference and hear your thoughts.=C2=A0

During = a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question from one of t= he attendees that I don't think was handled very well. The question was= from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about increasing = the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to finish his q= uestion as the microphone has been taken from him and as he wanted to comme= nt further he wasn't given a microphone back.=C2=A0

This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equal= ity in the community we must treat any questions people have with respect a= nd snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy=C2=A0that o= ne expects regardless to the gender, believe etc.

= Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to act = towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behavi= our towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actually have an = opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community.=C2=A0<= /div>

Sincerely,
Valeria





On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot <= laetitia.avrot@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

A= s I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't= think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way = than sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next ti= me.

Some quick information here :
- the dinner is sponsor, you ju= st need to take care of your drinks
- the dinner time is 7:30 PM=C2=A0- the restaurant is=C2=A0Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed)
- before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only w= ith women (we're actively looking for a place)

Have a nice day,<= /div>

L=C3=A6titia

--
Paper doesn=E2= =80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.
<= /div>
--000000000000d047e705953e9d5d--