Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1fAcob-0000iS-Es for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:51:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1fAcoZ-0006GP-Na for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:51:35 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1fAcoZ-0006GG-G7 for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:51:35 +0000 Received: from mail-ot0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::234]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1fAcoV-0000PX-Sj for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:51:34 +0000 Received: by mail-ot0-x234.google.com with SMTP id h8-v6so13787554otb.2 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mA46NRZRbSvKFC6c5ZoJShsoh9G3V8zLWcF7F4VuC2E=; b=lmOifrQNFYAN46IkSeygi/jqK7/0mdGMmm/9evurK6u9upD0s204i4ngzWJnSk9STh 5vpR05cYvu+1VmHaI8M/OjVk0jQK/aTJRdPivcU3GtKs/ulaVEi2sSAsSrfW2kcnrZvA l9Se2KlHkh1PSAO/p+2Z4IW/zlaf0sjKbjcUAAMcYL/bKLdUznTSptH/iksF628fEs5Z SFOxBYL/ODZfGryqn6wR2w6nI163yWVPE+r30Wy2N58ChEqj8p8IGOp+oypbxhWJCQ8X xTmI9os7weUrrzBFvGxNnaPSJkzU259Q8mS7IL0+nozGaKFh2ROu+8y+RkqY8+OrR8Uv I5vA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mA46NRZRbSvKFC6c5ZoJShsoh9G3V8zLWcF7F4VuC2E=; b=e/LHRgIkmKgnHqlRcpQfaQj/LZg4UQmlTbmjzZHeBjGzmdhUl8l32kG2EX3werIhpU 6zBUEAJtbIjqqcFWkd35vK0i/jXkPXT4HQh37QYwcbqW/shMPlin3eMvbqP0fcxHr+Jn 94jHpWMfxXwJywdy2aFeujVC5xxfRg86e66ZYKzOJLhPEZMYatAluZmlr4kPRm9Cox3y hkaTZdPyY4IIOvaWNjgz/aQJiRsdUmFpMpuj9+iJUbva9ur2RRFspZYic3p4qD5iqctO H72g5Qgwyo3bRA4o8wrH+v6DXcK8sNn38DWR61Qvs8Ux/dgAjzY6eMN1X7qOptMzAc1B tRIA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDqWAEH4piO52h+ueYUTntGELNB5s9zYf9/mjt5vUUZbkU4IN+8 jf3O9WwQuEmCbY0VbzbEQWuVmYkn7GSzw43QOVQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZozwJ38G0pUJo2WgO1OIDEkfOZG3MMdeeHAVqHVStIwuHjpW6TldCL9dLQQtrEgeVuwsfMKXi970WH1nEsU1Sk= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:16ee:: with SMTP id s43-v6mr4373156ots.290.1524495089437; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:51:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <38ee76b5-8bf5-9171-70de-f926b1e618c9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?L=C3=A6titia_Avrot?= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:51:18 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What we need to do To: Boriss Mejias Cc: pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000449032056a852ccc" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --000000000000449032056a852ccc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Boriss, > > I understand that we agree that as an organization, we better work on thi= s > together, women and men. That was my first paragraph about. This seems to > be > kind of a consensus in the group, so I feel welcome to participate and > contribute. > > More comments here below regarding the part where we disagree. > > L=C3=A6titia Avrot wrote on 12-04-18 13:48: > > Hi Boriss > > > > > > I think excluding men from certain activities can be positive in th= e > goal of > > making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-only IRC/Slack > channels can > > be a good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help in making women > feel > > welcomed. > > > > > > I strongly disagree. I want everyone to feel welcome, whatever their > gender is. > > If you start creating little worlds without men, first you exclude > people and > > that's a negative message to give and then it's totally artificial as > our world > > is populated with both men and women. > > I understand your concern, and I know you don't have problems > participating in a > world with mostly men. I saw your presentation at FOSDEM and you didn't > seem > intimidated at all. But for some women, maybe it is better to give some > steps in > a community removing some of the barriers (fictionally, I agree), but as > an > intermediate step, not as a fake reality, nor as a goal. > > When I was in academia we often discussed the fact that so few women stud= y > informatics. A professor told us that their statistics (sorry I don't hav= e > them > to confirm) showed that the percentage of women studying engineering was > smaller > if they were coming from a mixed-school, than from a girls-only school. > Their > conclusion was that women in a girls-only school didn't developed the ide= a > that > computers and science was a boy-thing, so they wouldn't be affected by > that > clich=C3=A9 when making a choice for their studies. > > > > > > So if we feel there is a problem with with > > women representation in our community, we need to find a solution > together. > > Absolutely. I started reading "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg (I like it a > lot by > the way). She insists that this is something we have to work on together. > She > also tells some stories of her experience speaking and participating in > women-only events, with very good results. > > Note that I'm not saying that creating women-only activities is the > solution. I > just feel we don't have to discard them a priori, because they seem to > have a > benefit for some women in the long run, as an intermediate step. I think > we > should evaluate this when there is a more concrete proposal. > > I understand better your point of view. It's against my faith that men an= d women can live together without harming themselves but I know that statistics show that it can be beneficial. So here are my thoughts : we could discuss some women-only activities, but not now. It's too soon and would send the wrong message. I'd prefer we focus on what we could do together for now. Cheers, L=C3=A6titia --000000000000449032056a852ccc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Boriss,=C2=A0

I understand that we agree that as an organization, we better work on this =
together, women and men. That was my first paragraph about. This seems to b= e
kind of a consensus in the group, so I feel welcome to participate and cont= ribute.

More comments here below regarding the part where we disagree.

L=C3=A6titia Avrot wrote on 12-04-18 13:48:
> Hi Boriss
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think excluding men from certain activities can b= e positive in the goal of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-onl= y IRC/Slack channels can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be a good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help= in making women feel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0welcomed.
>
>
> I strongly disagree. I want everyone to feel welcome, whatever their g= ender is.
> If you start creating little worlds without men, first you exclude peo= ple and
> that's a negative message to give and then it's totally artifi= cial as our world
> is populated with both men and women.

I understand your concern, and I know you don't have problems participa= ting in a
world with mostly men. I saw your presentation at FOSDEM and you didn't= seem
intimidated at all. But for some women, maybe it is better to give some ste= ps in
a community removing some of the barriers (fictionally, I agree), but as an=
intermediate step, not as a fake reality, nor as a goal.

When I was in academia we often discussed the fact that so few women study =
informatics. A professor told us that their statistics (sorry I don't h= ave them
to confirm) showed that the percentage of women studying engineering was sm= aller
if they were coming from a mixed-school, than from a girls-only school. The= ir
conclusion was that women in a girls-only school didn't developed the i= dea that
computers and science was a boy-thing, so they wouldn't be affected by = that
clich=C3=A9 when making a choice for their studies.




> So if we feel there is a problem with with
> women representation in our community, we need to find a solution toge= ther.

Absolutely. I started reading "Lean In" by Sheryl Sandberg (I lik= e it a lot by
the way). She insists that this is something we have to work on together. S= he
also tells some stories of her experience speaking and participating in women-only events, with very good results.

Note that I'm not saying that creating women-only activities is the sol= ution. I
just feel we don't have to discard them a priori, because they seem to = have a
benefit for some women in the long run, as an intermediate step. I think we=
should evaluate this when there is a more concrete proposal.

I understand better your point= of view. It's against my faith that men and women can live together wi= thout harming themselves but I know that statistics show that it can be ben= eficial.

So here are my = thoughts : we could discuss some women-only activities, but not now. It'= ;s too soon and would send the wrong message. I'd prefer we focus on wh= at we could do together for now.=C2=A0

Cheers,=C2=A0

L=C3=A6titia=C2=A0

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