Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f6VTc-0000Cu-M4 for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:12:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f6VTY-0003wG-LA for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:12:52 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f6VTY-0003w7-6n for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:12:52 +0000 Received: from mail-wr0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22a]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f6VTT-0007TQ-2k for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:12:50 +0000 Received: by mail-wr0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id l13so2824675wrb.5 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 23:12:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=postgresql.us; s=postgresql.us; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KjkTgTRxwgufHr1BGeypelEAAItP3Qu3hg9hz2E9lH4=; b=nOUYByOb2WFPURv7aOelmdZtXe6jBa2VLir0VR43MjsipCXN8LoEeEpixo1z4C38sn 7zfC3CVvhu4foj8uAc0L5wDNupi7zEFthYWv4wbcm0LTs+ZELhcdqCDxsO2bMf1roIE2 Tekg+QYsPbvDr1eptLRsW52AwluZb3PR7jeik= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KjkTgTRxwgufHr1BGeypelEAAItP3Qu3hg9hz2E9lH4=; b=BRqGB4jsEJginzy1jwAgms4sR8ng60UU5MPxhLGZIT1wpxiJuJLoo0appw34gVz/1q Rlvs30PNT3Nl9xbfI2xCdkgs2OSwBiAjHWmWgLB+w+l8PlSQDyQInRW1F7kTwrJEmM5c AJ7hQ7YIPlzs8WFXnhZDcIvrYuLVeTFGR8svMmsQ8UTe2xfCD6Nw8WTBiccsZZ7rnDZj C89qW1MEEui9RJhyvRZF2jPAEftKOrZpyP5gmxkgrA8n8BCAiBi62twQT88yhPDRSAyv XAQMF+WrDzWnZoigMagoO0b8wMzggJzdkhxF7V7N4QH4qneDldbZ3ay/U/u+9rt2G+ae XX/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tArNOTPDOSI5u34SYnERyG5YIN0N0hJQs5xaXvzWLE+yOft3GY7 +Zj05WTSNn0e8XYKLP10woQIiQRvg7gerQPQGB/zhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+acABrusa4xXa6bTIKs04YZ6OE8Pa2HN7nbUj2FWOKdeGFTa9ZVAzXtA1RBuOQJAOjigUoW37QfR7bW9S5TKc= X-Received: by 10.223.167.12 with SMTP id c12mr5248783wrd.194.1523513565520; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 23:12:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <38ee76b5-8bf5-9171-70de-f926b1e618c9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Debra Cerda Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 06:12:35 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: What we need to do To: Boriss Mejias Cc: pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1cc944e239220569a0a471" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --94eb2c1cc944e239220569a0a471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boriss, huge +1 to everything that you=E2=80=99ve added here. Thank you for your understanding and insight!! Debbie On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 5:47 PM Boriss Mejias wrote= : > Hi all, > > First of all, disclaimer, I'm a man trying to contribute here (but you > obviously > already deduced that from the name) > > Debra Cerda wrote on 11-04-18 17:53: > > Defining the vision of the group is also important, in regards to the > role and > > contributions of men. > > Some years ago I helped founding a group in the Alfresco community with > the > mission to guarantee that the software would remain open source (Alfresco > is > commercial open source and at the time we had the fear it would go close > source). > > One of the first steps was to identify the "vision", "mission" and > "goals". In > my understanding, a "vision" is what you want to be or become. It's bette= r > when > it's inclusive because you want people involved and be part of it. A > "goal" is > something concrete, aligned with the vision, that can be achieved and > divided > into steps. The "mission" is also aligned with the vision and helps you > define > the next goal once you achieve them (or discard them). So, one vision, on= e > mission, and several goals (but not too many, we want to achieve them one > by one). > > Taking that into account, I think "encourage and support women to become > active > members of the PostgreSQL community" is a great mission, because it helps > to > define goals after goals. It's a constant activity. One never finishes > encouraging and supporting. So, +1 to that as mission. > > Coming back to Debra's comment, what would be the "vision" of the > organization? > > > [...] > > On the other hand, when I had opened a dialogue last year about creatin= g > an > > international group of women in Postgres, I was met with enthusiasm > mostly from > > men stating "OH! We can do this, and this, and..." Which was > appreciated, but > > why not let women be the catalysts and the leaders? IMO, we need allies > and > > supporters, not "white knights" -- give us guidance, but let us do the > heavy > > lifting. > > I agree on this. Women has to be the catalysts and leader of this. Men > should be > able to help and provide feedback, and most importantly, talk to other me= n > about > how women contribute to our Postgres community. > > In the next reply, Payal Signh wrote the following: > > "I would agree involving men is a good idea. The purpose of the group is > to make > women feel welcomed, and alienating men seems unnecessary in that regard, > if not > counter-productive. " > > I think excluding men from PostgresWomen as an organization can be > counter-productive because it can create the feeling that it's a fight > between > two groups. I know it is not, but perception matters. > > I think excluding men from certain activities can be positive in the goal > of > making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-only IRC/Slack channels > can be a > good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help in making women feel > welcomed. > > Those are my current thoughts. > Cheers > Boriss > > > As a female professional with a "portfolio" career in no less than 4 > > male-dominated industries -- Postgres, craft beer, water, and film! -- > I've > > observed and been involved in a broad spectrum of approaches in creatin= g > > diversity, equity, and inclusion. > > > > Setting your goals and tactics are the first step to building a strong > > foundation and achieving your overall mission. > > > > Respectfully, > > Debbie > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 4:45 AM, Valeria Kaplan > > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Here is my two-cents :) > > > > @Postgresmen is run by Nikolay Samokhvalov and his main focus is > indeed tech > > P=D0=BEstgres news. He also organises #RuPostgres meetups. I agree = that > purely > > tech news is not exactly what we should focus on since there are > many other > > channels in place focusing on that. Agree on open source / women > focus and > > maybe we can do general tech news/women focus too. > > > > Partially, I think we need to do the last step (/Define goals and > steps to > > reach them/) first and then we will realise who exactly we need to > follow, > > how broad we should be and what to post overall. > > > > Here is my thinking and please feel free to feedback :) > > > > I am keeping in mind our already defined goal: Postgres Women is a > > non-profit organization created to*encourage and support women to > become > > active members of the PostgreSQL community*and *foster recognition > of their > > contribution to PostgreSQL*development. > > > > 1. We want to *increase awareness of our initiative across tech > industry > > *(this is broad I know, but I think there is no harm in it) >> > To do > > this we could follow major women's initiatives in tech on > > twitter/facebook in hope they will follow us and we will boost > > each-other's content aka get a wider reach/awareness. Note: we > could > > also get ideas on what initiatives we could do from their pages= . > > 2. We would like to *raise awareness of contribution of women in > > Postgres*>> @planetpostgres has a good flow of all news related > to > > Postgres development, ideally we would retweet women-led > contributions > > (blog posts, patch announcements etc.) > > 3. We would like to *encourage women to become active members in t= he > > community *>> any big conferences in north America, Europe and > Asia have > > their own twitter channels and announce relevant talks/blogs, w= e > could > > take that content and amplify women in it (retweet announcement= s > about > > women speakers, solicit content from those women for our > channels e.g. > > interviews, focus posts, opinion posts etc.) > > > > Reg face to face meeting, unfortunately I won't be there but if you > will be > > meeting there maybe others might join via skype/slack/whatsapp? > > > > thoughts? > > > > > > Valeria > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 7:53 AM, L=C3=A6titia Avrot < > laetitia.avrot@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Dian, > > > > I don't think there's enough content under the heading of > > women-focused Postgres stuff to keep this thing going witho= ut > > branching out some. As far as Twitter/social media goes, > > @postgresmen seem like a decent reference point: they publi= sh > > general news, showcase interesting projects and useful > tools, boost > > on-topic blog posts, and so forth. Doing that with an eye > toward > > emphasizing and advancing the work women do on+with Postgre= s > and > > developing a supportive community would be awesome. > > > > I might be wrong but I think Postgresmen is related to a russia= n > > postgres meetup so their followers are interested in tech news > whereas > > our purpuse is quite different. But maybe I'm wrong... > > > > Cheers, > > > > L=C3=A6titia > > > > > > > > --94eb2c1cc944e239220569a0a471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Boriss,=C2=A0

=
huge +1 to everything that you=E2=80=99ve added here.=C2= =A0

Thank you for your u= nderstanding and insight!!

Debbie

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 5:47 PM Boriss Mejias <bmejias@dcc.uchile.cl> wrote:
Hi all,

First of all, disclaimer, I'm a man trying to contribute here (but you = obviously
already deduced that from the name)

Debra Cerda wrote on 11-04-18 17:53:
> Defining the vision of the group is also important, in regards to the = role and
> contributions of men.

Some years ago I helped founding a group in the Alfresco community with the=
mission to guarantee that the software would remain open source (Alfresco i= s
commercial open source and at the time we had the fear it would go close so= urce).

One of the first steps was to identify the "vision", "missio= n" and "goals". In
my understanding, a "vision" is what you want to be or become. It= 's better when
it's inclusive because you want people involved and be part of it. A &q= uot;goal" is
something concrete, aligned with the vision, that can be achieved and divid= ed
into steps. The "mission" is also aligned with the vision and hel= ps you define
the next goal once you achieve them (or discard them). So, one vision, one =
mission, and several goals (but not too many, we want to achieve them one b= y one).

Taking that into account, I think "encourage and support women to beco= me active
members of the PostgreSQL community" is a great mission, because it he= lps to
define goals after goals. It's a constant activity. One never finishes =
encouraging and supporting. So, +1 to that as mission.

Coming back to Debra's comment, what would be the "vision" of= the organization?

> [...]
> On the other hand, when I had opened a dialogue last year about creati= ng an
> international group of women in Postgres, I was met with enthusiasm mo= stly from
> men stating "OH! We can do this, and this, and..." Which was= appreciated, but
> why not let women be the catalysts and the leaders? IMO, we need allie= s and
> supporters, not "white knights" -- give us guidance, but let= us do the heavy
> lifting.

I agree on this. Women has to be the catalysts and leader of this. Men shou= ld be
able to help and provide feedback, and most importantly, talk to other men = about
how women contribute to our Postgres community.

In the next reply, Payal Signh wrote the following:

"I would agree involving men is a good idea. The purpose of the group = is to make
women feel welcomed, and alienating men seems unnecessary in that regard, i= f not
counter-productive. "

I think excluding men from PostgresWomen as an organization can be
counter-productive because it can create the feeling that it's a fight = between
two groups. I know it is not, but perception matters.

I think excluding men from certain activities can be positive in the goal o= f
making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-only IRC/Slack channels can= be a
good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help in making women feel welcome= d.

Those are my current thoughts.
Cheers
Boriss

> As a female professional with a "portfolio" career in no les= s than 4
> male-dominated industries -- Postgres, craft beer, water, and film! --= I've
> observed and been involved in a broad spectrum of approaches in creati= ng
> diversity, equity, and inclusion.
>
> Setting your goals and tactics are the first step to building a strong=
> foundation and achieving your overall mission.
>
> Respectfully,
> Debbie
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 4:45 AM, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com
> <mailto:vk@da= taegret.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi All,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here is my two-cents :)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0@Postgresmen is run by Nikolay Samokhvalov and his = main focus is indeed tech
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P=D0=BEstgres news. He also organises #RuPostgres m= eetups. I agree that purely
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tech news is not exactly what we should focus on si= nce there are many other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0channels in place focusing on that. Agree on open s= ource / women focus and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maybe we can do general tech news/women focus too.<= br> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Partially, I think we need to do the last step (/De= fine goals and steps to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reach them/) first and then we will realise who exa= ctly we need to follow,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0how broad we should=C2=A0be and what to post overal= l.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here is my thinking and please feel free to feedbac= k :)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am keeping in mind our already defined goal: Post= gres Women is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0non-profit organization created to*encourage and su= pport women to become
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0active members of the PostgreSQL community*and *fos= ter recognition of their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contribution to PostgreSQL*development.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. We want to *increase awareness of our initiativ= e across tech industry
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*(this is broad I know, but I think t= here is no harm in it) >> To do
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this we could follow major women'= s initiatives in tech on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0twitter/facebook in hope they will fo= llow us and we will boost
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0each-other's=C2=A0content aka get= a wider reach/awareness. Note: we could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also get ideas on what initiatives we= could=C2=A0do from their pages.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. We would like to *raise awareness of contributi= on of women in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Postgres*>> @planetpostgres has= a good flow of all news related to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Postgres development, ideally we woul= d=C2=A0retweet women-led contributions
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(blog posts, patch announcements etc.= )
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. We would like to *encourage women to become act= ive members in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0community *>> any big conferenc= es in north America, Europe and Asia have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0their own twitter channels and announ= ce relevant talks/blogs, we could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0take that content and amplify women i= n it (retweet announcements about
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0women speakers, solicit content from = those women for our channels e.g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interviews, focus posts, opinion post= s etc.)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Reg face to face meeting, unfortunately I won't= be there but if you will be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meeting there maybe others might join via skype/sla= ck/whatsapp?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thoughts?
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Valeria
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 7:53 AM, L=C3=A6titia Avrot= <laetitia= .avrot@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Dian,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't think there= 's enough content under the heading of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0women-focused Postgres = stuff to keep this thing going without
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0branching out some. As = far as Twitter/social media goes,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0@postgresmen seem like = a decent reference point: they publish
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0general news, showcase = interesting projects and useful tools, boost
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on-topic blog posts, an= d so forth. Doing that with an eye toward
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0emphasizing and advanci= ng the work women do on+with Postgres and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0developing a supportive= community would be awesome.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I might be wrong but I think Postgres= men is related to a russian
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0postgres meetup so their followers ar= e interested in tech news whereas
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0our purpuse is quite different. But m= aybe I'm wrong...
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0L=C3=A6titia
>
>
>

--94eb2c1cc944e239220569a0a471--