Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMC9k-0007FF-NG for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:26:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMC9j-0002JZ-F4 for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:26:03 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:3e1:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMC9i-0002JO-T7 for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:26:03 +0000 Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iMC9a-00071O-EP for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 14:26:00 +0000 Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id 89so8814848oth.13 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:25:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uottawa-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bzgST2kiglcB/1WJqfF+G3P/8g8M5UkJyfylF9Dluw8=; b=aIoD4EAjcdRn9PGIyboZJzMODGqwj/UoTDxk7HeHuHRG4rq6ZDVzvf0HnrENofKC2n 0o5ajotqH/kE4Bj/Ha6kXiczNdig/ttxPFsTTMwkZAIUyFgaar+rATG58c2HwULr18Ta XFHQ3xmPyCo6z/Cn3JL4fRuzKd5F0wtkUrcovmH5usTcMGcdJhQqL9E4D1tphr4DEjpJ 95fN0Nfl806s1rM2zA8hoPphwrwkzOR4bXWU9kou5g5Lx5XncuNvzf2p73uEHSRriEH9 lM7zw94KrGa5oM7l3pL84B2LstmUZxSR/7nvtDTwWAOnvxCwwx1gmlg0W2NO00Teho2j Wg6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bzgST2kiglcB/1WJqfF+G3P/8g8M5UkJyfylF9Dluw8=; b=LKbofTBatF05x4GiX5Yi54D9Om/+KJ0VKql58gN6B610faEm02ChR7hoKE8RLuEanM UxcirSP5qtL0456dlseFE6eyWxACBbI6JHD8T+2EVjLI54a0vit6VUaVLszA5Np6vCSz hHqbUexyanIEFzSwU7se3C48KhP1ixrOroVgHq8FZzuT9cSf+HwHvyYJIhuIw3ADP7ai I5Sqma0CHo1bSe/Kj2yXgyDhWv5SxqdYTul3kmCWhL8eESTfriwGJXdzsjTlNUSq0TAv OH6h1xSd39JnxDkZfpYvDhjkZbsnf35M0Wtaru1UOX8TIQT9N/sGTTa46lAp+XAUsJS6 ndKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWaxgZOn4O0ujd8NW9e2vdXIEspsoXKu3+pLE4ykXQ4rEgjK3pG HiZPZAU8NYuuwhtjCPDXh8cQn1W3KsDWntH9STjbHw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjG67HPiGzeDX2Pi6+jlaDX9twu+ikHMLP+iloF0LWnyFnnYTaaTfxE5I5RFBQw50yTycl72G7j8aikuMJDx4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:137:: with SMTP id 52mr14255907otu.201.1571581553268; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 07:25:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7940600A-E43B-4F6A-B004-D469E4BA73D7@stefanie-stoelting.de> In-Reply-To: From: Katherine Mcmillan Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:25:42 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu To: Valeria Kaplan , pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000037f6aa059558589e" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --00000000000037f6aa059558589e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, As you may not be aware, we had run out of time on that talk, and because the speakers were over at the side addressing this man's question, they were unable to see that the time had run out. The talk was 3 minutes over-time, and the question/answer period had to be cut off. As a group, we were respectful of everyone asking questions, including this person. In fact, we let him go on several minutes over time, and because his "question" went on so long, it prevented another attendee at the talk from asking her question, despite her having her hand raised for several minutes= . I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the question or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the asker for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a good job in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my opinion, came across as someone just pulling anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-affirmative action rhetoric from the 1950s. He did not quote any statistics, references, or evidence in his "question", yet the talk contained qualitative, quantitative, and anecdotal evidence on the issue. Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I personally felt you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk. Sincerely, Katie On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan wrote: > Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic would really > be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but also to > those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions wit= h > colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that one. > > My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it wa= s > that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer. > > Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a > topic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and > that's where emotion may not be as helpful. > > > On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, < > mail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> This is just my impression of what happened. >> >> I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it ri= ght >> afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name). >> >> If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this questio= n >> turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could than just hav= e >> told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to the >> importance of that question and what could be done/said in such cases. >> >> It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't >> targeted by this in exactly that talk. >> Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that >> question will come up again. >> >> Cheers >> Stefanie >> >> Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" < >> laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>: >>> >>> Hi Valeria, >>> >>> As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in >>> tech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're= a >>> woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed t= hat >>> out, my head was like "not that argument again". >>> >>> And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech >>> here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres wome= n to >>> be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversa= tion. >>> >>> The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. >>> That's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our >>> gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what = data >>> should we rely? Facts or hypothesis? >>> >>> Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or >>> because I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer >>> that question and I know that question very well because it's always in= my >>> head. I finally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give m= e >>> room to speech, so I take it. >>> >>> The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker wh= o >>> asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They si= mply >>> don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'. >>> >>> Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been >>> a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong p= ast >>> experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better= . >>> >>> Have a nice day, >>> >>> L=C3=A6titia >>> >>> Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a >>> =C3=A9crit : >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted >>>> to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the >>>> conference and hear your thoughts. >>>> >>>> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question >>>> from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. Th= e >>>> question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point = about >>>> increasing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to >>>> finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as h= e >>>> wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back. >>>> >>>> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want >>>> equality in the community we must treat any questions people have with >>>> respect and snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic >>>> courtesy that one expects regardless to the gender, believe etc. >>>> >>>> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to >>>> act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their >>>> behaviour towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actual= ly >>>> have an opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the >>>> community. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Valeria >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't >>>>> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way= than >>>>> sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time. >>>>> >>>>> Some quick information here : >>>>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >>>>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM >>>>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >>>>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with >>>>> women (we're actively looking for a place) >>>>> >>>>> Have a nice day, >>>>> >>>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.* >>>>> >>>> --00000000000037f6aa059558589e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

As you may not be aware, we had= run out of time on that talk, and because the speakers were over at the si= de addressing this man's question, they were unable to see that the tim= e had run out.=C2=A0 The talk was 3 minutes over-time, and the question/ans= wer period had to be cut off.=C2=A0 As a group, we were respectful of every= one asking questions, including this person. In fact, we let him go on seve= ral minutes over time, and because his "question" went on so long= , it prevented another attendee at the talk from asking her question, despi= te her having her hand raised for several minutes.

I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the question= or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the ask= er for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a good j= ob in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my opinion,= came across as someone just pulling anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-affi= rmative action rhetoric from the 1950s.=C2=A0 He did not quote any statisti= cs, references, or evidence in his "question", yet the talk conta= ined qualitative, quantitative, and anecdotal evidence on the issue.
<= div>
Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I= personally felt you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk.

Sincerely,
Katie

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019= at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan <vk@datae= gret.com> wrote:
Agree on that one! I think have some resourc= es on the topic would really be helpful. Not only to those who ask question= s like that, but also to those of us who are aware of the problem but somet= imes in discussions with colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like= that one.=C2=A0

My issu= e was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it was that qu= estion that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer.=C2=A0

Some= times the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a topi= c but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and that'= ;s where emotion may not be as helpful.=C2=A0


On Sat, 19 Oct = 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, <mail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrot= e:
Hi all,<= br>
This is just my impression of what happened.

I felt exactly t= he same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it right afterwards in t= he discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name).

If he'd ask= ed that as a question " what can we/I do in case this question turns u= p..." it would have been a different case, we could than just have tol= d him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to the importanc= e of that question and what could be done/said in such cases.

It'= ;s fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't targe= ted by this in exactly that talk.
Maybe we should put some sources toget= her and point to them when that question will come up again.

Cheers<= br>Stefanie

Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 = MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" <laetitia.avrot@gmail.= com>:
Hi Valeria,

= As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech,= I got the "you're not here because you're good but because yo= u're a woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the g= uy pointed that out, my head was like "not that argument again".<= /div>

And I know for a fact th= at several women were given that kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year.= I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to be confronted with tha= t so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation.

The thing about that is we work hard to = give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's not questionab= le. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or against us dur= ing the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?

Am I selected because my ab= stract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known i= n the community?=C2=A0 There is no way to answer that question and I know t= hat question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decide= d that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, = so I take it.

The other = thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who ask= s himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They = simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'defa= ult'.

Finally, I tot= ally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emotion= al because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences. Than= k you for having pointed that out and we'll get better.

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3= =A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All,

In light of op= enness and acceptance within our community I just wanted to raise an issue = that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the conference and he= ar your thoughts.=C2=A0

During a Postgres Women Q&= amp;A session at pgconf.eu there was a question from one of the atten= dees that I don't think was handled very well. The question was from a = guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about increasing the numb= er of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to finish his question = as the microphone has been taken from him and as he wanted to comment furth= er he wasn't given a microphone back.=C2=A0

Th= is actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equality in t= he community we must treat any questions people have with respect and snatc= hing a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy=C2=A0that one expec= ts regardless to the gender, believe etc.

Postgres= Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to act towards = the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behaviour towa= rds minority. This might send a wrong message and actually have an opposite= effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community.=C2=A0

Sincerely,
Valeria