Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMDmJ-0002Nm-EQ for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:09:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMDmI-0006iB-6P for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:09:58 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMDmH-0006hw-Op for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:09:58 +0000 Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iMDm9-0002FC-1x for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 16:09:56 +0000 Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id y39so8964471ota.7 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:09:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uottawa-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=0/fndAR+5S9PuRiXtxLbj3HPF/P/rGO1DGs1xKbrYSE=; b=DXPbD5+ZMbcUtM/f85ISATkKTCod0JWbqo4QPQPSU+LUixU3j2Pm7Lyi8aBoTwI33e yCF4d4wlqTRA38T+qb6fmwzsXgLtb7wrp4XhnRDlaVsae7WyEbM0fjnfvaTTZZO3JZwH ZeCV+8rwJe0lnOpExJUcgOVRyCyFjbsNnW0u/z0J1god+9VqyCYZav85UTqPoVzVTbOA wFQv14X0a1G0L4PlIeND5ABmQrmrcgXiap2HoQUml+MTdm0EnCd4C0o15+Tt9jSnNCvj pJT3M0duFRSGbb3EGEoKrzbNuF1EQAKW/GEHzbpxaaYA8L6yh2knFTd7euLQjtHtrL5Y bQwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=0/fndAR+5S9PuRiXtxLbj3HPF/P/rGO1DGs1xKbrYSE=; b=J6EUrNmmjYmn7bBQzXfPI7yGEyeqo5n/ei2QcCbA5AaMSenzZv8PMtTWKvz1sqoeZ9 4ZSzrcPF8TtxroJjb4PFjkBLHqjvR06MzlWwaQRBCP2q+GkqwEQJjRmEWP+DHAodY8Cf dgTlnlqGtO2FB0w3O9qLNOBii2UV/QVPlsPtn3NCwDdX50WSTSwty/E77LDryt+E+Gw+ HIg6tYn0ekxiD2GKSHwbtJ99wXSez2qZcQQWTYxm/U2+siatgt4vdgmjIt7BwuhDXKMh fkSlULcxo8u4labjdYsEvSTMh125j1aYqNKpnIF4u1LldKP09SBE4RwhleiWRAMeKlZ5 IyKg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWf28WhBzsigTRGjB0hGr4Ewk2C9IJAkdB3T4lGKzt6xS0hdv73 uOy0PsEtp4yXPsWulRDxGCRTA42O7LFQk9ztWc1FCA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwtJjtIM0fllsirvmIsYbqGgcEqx6HVigjd4cJlAl23K3szcGWM1hFnOX1bGNsEaBB1bh6BLMoKPLYit8/CGqE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:11d1:: with SMTP id v17mr14557778otq.41.1571587785133; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:09:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C2BE78C-C1C9-4A8A-9206-BDFB7D15322B@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: <3C2BE78C-C1C9-4A8A-9206-BDFB7D15322B@googlemail.com> From: Katherine Mcmillan Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:09:34 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu To: Olga Kalinina , pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aaa8c1059559cbf1" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --000000000000aaa8c1059559cbf1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is nothing wrong with emotional responses. I was happy to see that the speakers were so engaged, passionate and already well-informed about the issues. Do the speakers feel that they could have used more references, evidence and speaking points than they already had? What is the appropriate length for a question in one of these sessions so that I can better host/moderate one in the future? Thank you, Katie On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 12:02 PM Olga Kalinina < olga.v.kalinina@googlemail.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > I also was in the session and I basically agree with everyone in this > thread: the question was not friendly and poorly phrased, but it could ha= ve > been handled more gracefully and less emotionally (especially since the > speaker had an excellent answer which probably did not get across too wel= l > in the haste). > > Since this is the question that will most probably come up again and > again, I think we should be prepared to answer it over and over again (no= t > only in talks but also in private conversations), and collecting referenc= es > and material will definitely help. I think this mailing list is an > excellent opportunity to share these things. Everyone will feel more > confident having back-up evidence. > > On a side note, maybe room hosts could sometimes more actively moderate > discussions preventing these too long questions? The speaker is just too > engaged and it can feel uncomfortable for her to interrupt a question. > > Finally, I=E2=80=99d like to thank Ilaria, L=C3=A6titia and Renee for pre= paring the > talk and generally for standing up for women in the community (and everyo= ne > else involved of course), and Katie for hosting the session! Great job! > > Best, > Olga > > On 20. Oct 2019, at 16:26, Katherine Mcmillan wrote= : > > =EF=BB=BF > Hi all, > > As you may not be aware, we had run out of time on that talk, and because > the speakers were over at the side addressing this man's question, they > were unable to see that the time had run out. The talk was 3 minutes > over-time, and the question/answer period had to be cut off. As a group, > we were respectful of everyone asking questions, including this person. I= n > fact, we let him go on several minutes over time, and because his > "question" went on so long, it prevented another attendee at the talk fro= m > asking her question, despite her having her hand raised for several minut= es. > > I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the questio= n > or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the > asker for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a > good job in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my > opinion, came across as someone just pulling > anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-affirmative action rhetoric from the > 1950s. He did not quote any statistics, references, or evidence in his > "question", yet the talk contained qualitative, quantitative, and anecdot= al > evidence on the issue. > > Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure; I personally felt > you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk. > > Sincerely, > Katie > > On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan wrote: > >> Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic would really >> be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but also to >> those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions wi= th >> colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that one. >> >> My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it >> was that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer. >> >> Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a >> topic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and >> that's where emotion may not be as helpful. >> >> >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, < >> mail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> This is just my impression of what happened. >>> >>> I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it r= ight >>> afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name). >>> >>> If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this >>> question turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could tha= n >>> just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed= to >>> the importance of that question and what could be done/said in such cas= es. >>> >>> It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't >>> targeted by this in exactly that talk. >>> Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that >>> question will come up again. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Stefanie >>> >>> Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" < >>> laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> Hi Valeria, >>>> >>>> As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in >>>> tech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you'r= e a >>>> woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed = that >>>> out, my head was like "not that argument again". >>>> >>>> And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speec= h >>>> here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres wom= en to >>>> be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the convers= ation. >>>> >>>> The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. >>>> That's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our >>>> gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what= data >>>> should we rely? Facts or hypothesis? >>>> >>>> Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or >>>> because I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answe= r >>>> that question and I know that question very well because it's always i= n my >>>> head. I finally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give = me >>>> room to speech, so I take it. >>>> >>>> The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker >>>> who asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. Th= ey >>>> simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default= '. >>>> >>>> Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have bee= n >>>> a bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong = past >>>> experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get bette= r. >>>> >>>> Have a nice day, >>>> >>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>> >>>> Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a >>>> =C3=A9crit : >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wante= d >>>>> to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the >>>>> conference and hear your thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question >>>>> from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. T= he >>>>> question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point= about >>>>> increasing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to >>>>> finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as = he >>>>> wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back. >>>>> >>>>> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want >>>>> equality in the community we must treat any questions people have wit= h >>>>> respect and snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic >>>>> courtesy that one expects regardless to the gender, believe etc. >>>>> >>>>> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not t= o >>>>> act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their >>>>> behaviour towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actua= lly >>>>> have an opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the >>>>> community. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Valeria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot < >>>>> laetitia.avrot@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't >>>>>> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other wa= y than >>>>>> sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time= . >>>>>> >>>>>> Some quick information here : >>>>>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >>>>>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM >>>>>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >>>>>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with >>>>>> women (we're actively looking for a place) >>>>>> >>>>>> Have a nice day, >>>>>> >>>>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.* >>>>>> >>>>> --000000000000aaa8c1059559cbf1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is nothing wrong with emotional responses.=C2=A0 I w= as happy to see that the speakers were so engaged, passionate and already w= ell-informed about the issues. Do the speakers feel that they could have us= ed more references, evidence and speaking points than they already had?
What is the appropriate length for a question in one of the= se sessions so that I can better host/moderate one in the future?

Thank you,
Katie

On Sun, Oct 20, = 2019 at 12:02 PM Olga Kalinina <olga.v.kalinina@googlemail.com> wrote:
= Dear all,

I also was in th= e session and I basically agree with everyone in this thread: the question = was not friendly and poorly phrased, but it could have been handled more gr= acefully and less emotionally (especially since the speaker had an excellen= t answer which probably did not get across too well in the haste).

Since this is the question that wi= ll most probably come up again and again, I think we should be prepared to = answer it over and over again (not only in talks but also in private conver= sations), and collecting references and material will definitely help. I th= ink this mailing list is an excellent opportunity to share these things. Ev= eryone will feel more confident having back-up evidence.=C2=A0

On a side note, maybe room hosts could= sometimes more actively moderate discussions preventing these too long que= stions? The speaker is just too engaged and it can feel uncomfortable for h= er to interrupt a question.=C2=A0

Finally, I=E2=80=99d like to thank Ilaria, L=C3=A6titia and Renee = for preparing the talk and generally for standing up for women in the commu= nity (and everyone else involved of course), and Katie for hosting the sess= ion! Great job!

Best,
Olga=C2=A0

On 20. Oct 2019, at 16:26, Katherine Mcmillan <kmcmi046@uottawa.ca> wrote:
=EF=BB= =BF
Hi all,

As you may not be aware, we = had run out of time on that talk, and because the speakers were over at the= side addressing this man's question, they were unable to see that the = time had run out.=C2=A0 The talk was 3 minutes over-time, and the question/= answer period had to be cut off.=C2=A0 As a group, we were respectful of ev= eryone asking questions, including this person. In fact, we let him go on s= everal minutes over time, and because his "question" went on so l= ong, it prevented another attendee at the talk from asking her question, de= spite her having her hand raised for several minutes.

<= div>I do not agree that Renee, nor anyone else, was dismissive of the quest= ion or handled it poorly. In fact, Renee and the speakers chatted with the = asker for as long as possible after the talk as well. I felt they did a goo= d job in the time that was left to address the question, which, in my opini= on, came across as someone just pulling anti-feminist/anti-inclusion/anti-a= ffirmative action rhetoric from the 1950s.=C2=A0 He did not quote any stati= stics, references, or evidence in his "question", yet the talk co= ntained qualitative, quantitative, and anecdotal evidence on the issue.

Congratulations to all the speakers on your composure= ; I personally felt you did great and it was a pleasure to host your talk.<= /div>

Sincerely,
Katie

On Sat, Oct 19, 20= 19 at 8:43 AM Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> wrote:
Agree on that one! I thi= nk have some resources on the topic would really be helpful. Not only to th= ose who ask questions like that, but also to those of us who are aware of t= he problem but sometimes in discussions with colleagues trying to answer qu= estions exactly like that one.=C2=A0

My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I = guess it was that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answe= r.=C2=A0

Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're pas= sionate about a topic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and= answer and that's where emotion may not be as helpful.=C2=A0

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, <mail@stefanie-stoe= lting.de> wrote:
Hi all,

This is just my impression of what happened.
I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it = right afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name).
If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case = this question turns up..." it would have been a different case, we cou= ld than just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have poi= nted to the importance of that question and what could be done/said in such= cases.

It's fair enough to come up with that question as someon= e who isn't targeted by this in exactly that talk.
Maybe we should p= ut some sources together and point to them when that question will come up = again.

Cheers
Stefanie

Am 19. O= ktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" <= laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>:
Hi Valeria,

= As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech,= I got the "you're not here because you're good but because yo= u're a woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the g= uy pointed that out, my head was like "not that argument again".<= /div>

And I know for a fact th= at several women were given that kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year.= I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to be confronted with tha= t so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation.

The thing about that is we work hard to = give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's not questionab= le. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or against us dur= ing the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?

Am I selected because my ab= stract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known i= n the community?=C2=A0 There is no way to answer that question and I know t= hat question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decide= d that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, = so I take it.

The other = thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who ask= s himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They = simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'defa= ult'.

Finally, I tot= ally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emotion= al because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences. Than= k you for having pointed that out and we'll get better.

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3= =A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All,

In light of op= enness and acceptance within our community I just wanted to raise an issue = that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the conference and he= ar your thoughts.=C2=A0

During a Postgres Women Q&= amp;A session at pgconf.eu there was a question from one of the atten= dees that I don't think was handled very well. The question was from a = guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point about increasing the numb= er of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to finish his question = as the microphone has been taken from him and as he wanted to comment furth= er he wasn't given a microphone back.=C2=A0

Th= is actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equality in t= he community we must treat any questions people have with respect and snatc= hing a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy=C2=A0that one expec= ts regardless to the gender, believe etc.

Postgres= Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to act towards = the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behaviour towa= rds minority. This might send a wrong message and actually have an opposite= effect than what we are trying to achieve in the community.=C2=A0

Sincerely,
Valeria