Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLo5G-0004aE-4V for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:43:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLo5E-0007JW-S8 for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:43:48 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLo5E-0007JP-HA for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:43:48 +0000 Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iLo5A-0004Q1-RO for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 12:43:47 +0000 Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 3so8517804wmi.3 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 05:43:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dataegret-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xAfOxd8aM2UJ6rR1joXg/f8zwvo8e3AULS3EDwtTyb8=; b=BAuZdq+1oBRRibWnvfIIMNpAd0kvK8kAh41jT7a2blevek/tf0fi0pFBW4tNl4sunz 7xlvPNglLX6trov3NFrSA6TjcNb6czz8P0URgNSRQErdab1yDb5aZekjScBbiLfegiSw iczCMtvP/iIT06nVHON25czxAXZrXcX8/yOboF0ZTdXMEqX4dk923o3VYM9bY4yLukxp c1lewWGWElcgrJcltVuU1CO/fhEUyrDKXbCv+KtmnCsbTUCVa2XZX3u2ojyIx0DNCwFD Uy5ln7JrmBnRGiGSvEOxacAioP4ew59RfdQMngxN4SPJRnltm4AU+cvjQl3GmxkiV/F8 qqOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xAfOxd8aM2UJ6rR1joXg/f8zwvo8e3AULS3EDwtTyb8=; b=R47d25VUe7+Fkt60NUvvQVX/jsw00KWMm/00KUb5xevbCmjZFY7XMLxujXNiozOW1q xEpbjqDL378ohE27UnpCq0pPnGmple3GVB2mXtxCq1T3rObhvwAkzgOucmZhk/AUQZ6n ZQAMMe6Bssioj+FUuJ4rax/Xh+8xJ7OHYpfnoGu/gEKixY1JBb2nVegbuQnyFK4vsbAH ImVTDuAJW7hLAfNQDMj/cvkiRfwwhz7keaxWQa7eC5acUHyebxJ7Mea0YjZCY93suX3A HorxGIhUrbOOH+a7d1gTNKHLVMT7XbrBpXLlZbX8cBfUvbxqpijoNf1ustxuqGMsDnVt c8Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUluNhjJJTdHDCLqTWYoW1zvNu1X+y3Q4jqFhT4prDLlmkgs+J1 QcIHQhGR6iDBOjtTTkUY0P72m2aiFJD6rnPv+gwl5Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwbFklNYSHzSAZHK8OFCv62mCuEKOln56oPjkowyenrb7buV6ljqaMNcmTKHc9PeU/maTN1oxHEP3bRDTl/dRQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:d0:: with SMTP id 199mr12141901wma.67.1571489023516; Sat, 19 Oct 2019 05:43:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7940600A-E43B-4F6A-B004-D469E4BA73D7@stefanie-stoelting.de> In-Reply-To: <7940600A-E43B-4F6A-B004-D469E4BA73D7@stefanie-stoelting.de> From: Valeria Kaplan Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:43:31 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Q&A at Postgres Women talk at pgconf.eu To: =?UTF-8?Q?Stefanie_Janine_St=C3=B6lting?= Cc: pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org, =?UTF-8?Q?L=C3=A6titia_Avrot?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003f5f6059542cd1d" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --00000000000003f5f6059542cd1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree on that one! I think have some resources on the topic would really be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like that, but also to those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in discussions with colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that one. My issue was more about way the interaction was handled and I guess it was that question that triggered a quite emotionally charged answer. Sometimes the emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a topic but sometimes the focus should be on the question and answer and that's where emotion may not be as helpful. On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13:28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, < mail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is just my impression of what happened. > > I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I only got it rig= ht > afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the name). > > If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do in case this question > turns up..." it would have been a different case, we could than just have > told him to discuss this afterwards and we would have pointed to the > importance of that question and what could be done/said in such cases. > > It's fair enough to come up with that question as someone who isn't > targeted by this in exactly that talk. > Maybe we should put some sources together and point to them when that > question will come up again. > > Cheers > Stefanie > > Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" < > laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>: >> >> Hi Valeria, >> >> As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in >> tech, I got the "you're not here because you're good but because you're = a >> woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the guy pointed th= at >> out, my head was like "not that argument again". >> >> And I know for a fact that several women were given that kind of speech >> here at pgconfeu this year. I felt like I didn't want new postgres women= to >> be confronted with that so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversat= ion. >> >> The thing about that is we work hard to give great abstracts to CFPs. >> That's a fact and it's not questionable. We have no way to know if our >> gender is used in favor or against us during the selection, so on what d= ata >> should we rely? Facts or hypothesis? >> >> Am I selected because my abstract is good, because I'm a woman or becaus= e >> I'm now well-known in the community? There is no way to answer that >> question and I know that question very well because it's always in my he= ad. >> I finally decided that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room = to >> speech, so I take it. >> >> The other thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who >> asks himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They sim= ply >> don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'default'. >> >> Finally, I totally understand your point and our answer might have been = a >> bit too emotional because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past >> experiences. Thank you for having pointed that out and we'll get better. >> >> Have a nice day, >> >> L=C3=A6titia >> >> Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3=A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan a = =C3=A9crit : >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> In light of openness and acceptance within our community I just wanted >>> to raise an issue that I've seen happen during a Q&A session at the >>> conference and hear your thoughts. >>> >>> During a Postgres Women Q&A session at pgconf.eu there was a question >>> from one of the attendees that I don't think was handled very well. The >>> question was from a guy who raised, in my opinion, a very valid point a= bout >>> increasing the number of female speakers at events. He wasn't able to >>> finish his question as the microphone has been taken from him and as he >>> wanted to comment further he wasn't given a microphone back. >>> >>> This actually made me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equalit= y >>> in the community we must treat any questions people have with respect a= nd >>> snatching a microphone from them is a lack of basic courtesy that one >>> expects regardless to the gender, believe etc. >>> >>> Postgres Women is a fantastic initiative and I think the key is not to >>> act towards the majority in a way that we wouldn't tolerate as their >>> behaviour towards minority. This might send a wrong message and actuall= y >>> have an opposite effect than what we are trying to achieve in the >>> community. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Valeria >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As I'm still learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't >>>> think to take people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way = than >>>> sending this invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time. >>>> >>>> Some quick information here : >>>> - the dinner is sponsor, you just need to take care of your drinks >>>> - the dinner time is 7:30 PM >>>> - the restaurant is Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed) >>>> - before the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with wome= n >>>> (we're actively looking for a place) >>>> >>>> Have a nice day, >>>> >>>> L=C3=A6titia >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow on trees. Please print responsibly.* >>>> >>> --00000000000003f5f6059542cd1d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree on that one! I think have some resources on th= e topic would really be helpful. Not only to those who ask questions like t= hat, but also to those of us who are aware of the problem but sometimes in = discussions with colleagues trying to answer questions exactly like that on= e.=C2=A0

My issue was mo= re about way the interaction was handled and I guess it was that question t= hat triggered a quite emotionally charged answer.=C2=A0

Sometimes th= e emotion is good, it shows that you're passionate about a topic but so= metimes the focus should be on the question and answer and that's where= emotion may not be as helpful.=C2=A0


On Sat, 19 Oct 2019, 13= :28 Stefanie Janine St=C3=B6lting, <mail@stefanie-stoelting.de> wrote:
Hi all,

This is just my impression of what hap= pened.

I felt exactly the same as L=C3=A6titia as it happened. I onl= y got it right afterwards in the discussion with the guy (sorry, forgot the= name).

If he'd asked that as a question " what can we/I do= in case this question turns up..." it would have been a different cas= e, we could than just have told him to discuss this afterwards and we would= have pointed to the importance of that question and what could be done/sai= d in such cases.

It's fair enough to come up with that question = as someone who isn't targeted by this in exactly that talk.
Maybe we= should put some sources together and point to them when that question will= come up again.

Cheers
Stefanie

Am 19. Oktober 2019 09:43:59 MESZ schrieb "L=C3=A6titia Avrot" &= lt;laetitia.avrot@gmail.com>:
Hi Valeria,

= As I said, impostor syndrom kicks really hard women and as a woman in tech,= I got the "you're not here because you're good but because yo= u're a woman" assertion so many times in my career that when the g= uy pointed that out, my head was like "not that argument again".<= /div>

And I know for a fact th= at several women were given that kind of speech here at pgconfeu this year.= I felt like I didn't want new postgres women to be confronted with tha= t so soon. That's why I ended firmly the conversation.

The thing about that is we work hard to = give great abstracts to CFPs. That's a fact and it's not questionab= le. We have no way to know if our gender is used in favor or against us dur= ing the selection, so on what data should we rely? Facts or hypothesis?

Am I selected because my ab= stract is good, because I'm a woman or because I'm now well-known i= n the community?=C2=A0 There is no way to answer that question and I know t= hat question very well because it's always in my head. I finally decide= d that it didn't matter. I'm me and people give me room to speech, = so I take it.

The other = thing I'd like to ask is "Do you know a white male speaker who ask= s himself if he was selected because he's a white man?". No. They = simply don't put it that way because being a white man is the 'defa= ult'.

Finally, I tot= ally understand your point and our answer might have been a bit too emotion= al because based on fear generated by multiple wrong past experiences. Than= k you for having pointed that out and we'll get better.

Have a nice day,

L=C3=A6titia

Le ven. 18 oct. 2019 =C3= =A0 17:49, Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Hi = All,

In light of openness and acceptan= ce within our community I just wanted to raise an issue that I've seen = happen during a Q&A session at the conference and hear your thoughts.= =C2=A0

During a Postgres Women Q&A session at = pgconf.eu there was a question from one of the attendees that I don&#= 39;t think was handled very well. The question was from a guy who raised, i= n my opinion, a very valid point about increasing the number of female spea= kers at events. He wasn't able to finish his question as the microphone= has been taken from him and as he wanted to comment further he wasn't = given a microphone back.=C2=A0

This actually made = me feel a bit uneasy since I feel if we want equality in the community we m= ust treat any questions people have with respect and snatching a microphone= from them is a lack of basic courtesy=C2=A0that one expects regardless to = the gender, believe etc.

Postgres Women is a fanta= stic initiative and I think the key is not to act towards the majority in a= way that we wouldn't tolerate as their behaviour towards minority. Thi= s might send a wrong message and actually have an opposite effect than what= we are trying to achieve in the community.=C2=A0

= Sincerely,
Valeria





On Tu= e, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:37 PM L=C3=A6titia Avrot <laetitia= .avrot@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

As I'm stil= l learning and not so good at organizing things, I didn't think to take= people's e-mail to contact them, so I have no other way than sending t= his invitation here to everyone. We'll get better next time.

Som= e quick information here :
- the dinner is sponsor, you just need to tak= e care of your drinks
- the dinner time is 7:30 PM=C2=A0
- the restau= rant is=C2=A0Ristorante Tagiura (please, find map enclosed)
- bef= ore the dinner, we'll find a place to have a drink only with women (we&= #39;re actively looking for a place)

Have a nice day,

=
L=C3=A6titia

--
Paper doesn=E2=80=99t grow o= n trees. Please print responsibly.
--00000000000003f5f6059542cd1d--