Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f7QcG-0002gB-Ow for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:13:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f7QcF-0002OB-GL for pgsql-women@arkaria.postgresql.org; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:13:39 +0000 Received: from makus.postgresql.org ([2001:4800:1501:1::229]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f7QcF-0002O1-7t for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:13:39 +0000 Received: from c.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.111.80]) by makus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Qc7-0006id-FQ for pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 19:13:37 +0000 Received: from [192.168.42.83] (50-1-118-162.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.118.162]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id w3EJD90k005634 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:13:09 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2A7CA8D1-1011-433F-9A8C-ED2762E99350 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: What we need to do From: Elein X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15D100) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 12:13:08 -0700 Cc: Valeria Kaplan , Boriss Mejias , =?utf-8?Q?L=C3=A6titia_Avrot?= , pgsql-women@lists.postgresql.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <38ee76b5-8bf5-9171-70de-f926b1e618c9@gmail.com> To: Debra Cerda X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVaft/xpTE7zEVKCAgr4fVMxm6KKScW8bCtNiccbzS+BPvPd+d3elH7q3uLfvnav36vPOY1aw53GiJy0tsH5rVjo X-Sonic-ID: C;yKha3hdA6BG511DNXaHR5A== M;CgGT3hdA6BG511DNXaHR5A== X-Spam-Flag: No X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Precedence: bulk --Apple-Mail-2A7CA8D1-1011-433F-9A8C-ED2762E99350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A little history. I had tried to create a postgres-women mailing list severa= l years ago. I wanted it to be women only, a la systers, and once establishe= d possibly opening to anyone. I felt the time to forge our space was importa= nt.=20 I was not included on most mail in the discussions with the committee. And s= o was prevented from arguing my case. I also received vicious personal email= s.=20 I have worked as a woman in tech for 30+ years. I have worked on productized= and open source postgres since 1992. =20 I have happily worked with many postgres men. But the vitriol about our list= was beyond the pale.=20 With all that said, carry on in your best way and I will support you.=20 Elein Mustain elein@varlena.com 510-637-9106 > On Apr 12, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Debra Cerda wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:51 AM Valeria Kaplan wrote:= >> Agree with L=C3=A6titia, >> It doesn't matter what sex you are or feel that you belong to, everyone s= hould feel welcomed in our group and activities. In my opinion, excluding me= n in any way would be contra-productive. As if to say, "you are not a woman -= you can't contribute" or "you will be too pushy". Those are the exact assum= ptions we are striving to break, no? >> =20 >> another ++ to: Anyone (men or women) that want to force their vision to o= ur group should be explained that it's not the way we work. >>=20 >=20 > +1 >=20 > Please note these scenarios were mostly observations and not my beliefs. I= ndeed, most of my professional mentors have been men. >=20 > It=E2=80=99s wonderful and humbling to have past male colleagues reach ou= t and ask for my advice and help in diversifying their workforce, or buildin= g up their female staff through female centric professional organizations. P= aying it forward however I can.=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM, L=C3=A6titia Avrot wrote: >>> Hi Boriss >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think excluding men from certain activities can be positive in the go= al of making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-only IRC/Slack channel= s can be a good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help in making women fe= el welcomed. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I strongly disagree. I want everyone to feel welcome, whatever their gen= der is. If you start creating little worlds without men, first you exclude p= eople and that's a negative message to give and then it's totally artificial= as our world is populated with both men and women. So if we feel there is a= problem with with women representation in our community, we need to find a s= olution together. Men and women both have brain, so they can both come with c= reative ideas. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> L=C3=A6titia >>=20 --Apple-Mail-2A7CA8D1-1011-433F-9A8C-ED2762E99350 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A little history. I had trie= d to create a postgres-women mailing list several years ago. I wanted it to b= e women only, a la systers, and once established possibly opening to anyone.= I felt the time to forge our space was important. 

= I was not included on most mail in the discussions with the committee. And s= o was prevented from arguing my case. I also received vicious personal email= s. 

I have worked as a woman in tech for 30+ y= ears. I have worked on productized and open source postgres since 1992. &nbs= p;

I have happily worked with many postgres men. Bu= t the vitriol about our list was beyond the pale. 

=
With all that said, carry on in your best way and I will support you.&n= bsp;

Elein Mustain
510-637-9106
=

On Apr 12, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Debra Cerda <dcerda@postgresql.us> wrote:


On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:51 AM Valeria Kaplan <vk@dataegret.com> wrote:
Agree with L=C3=A6titia,
It doesn't matter what sex you are or= feel that you belong to, everyone should feel welcomed in our group and act= ivities. In my opinion, excluding men in any way would be contra-productive.= As if to say, "you are not a woman - you can't contribute" or "you will be t= oo pushy". Those are the exact assumptions we are striving to break, no= ?
 
<= div>another ++ to: An= yone (men or women) that want to force their vision to our group should be e= xplained that it's not the way we work.


+1

Please note these scenarios= were mostly observations and not my beliefs. Indeed, most of my professiona= l mentors have been men.

=  It=E2=80=99s wonderful and humbling to have past male colleagues reach= out and ask for my advice and help in diversifying their workforce, or buil= ding up their female staff through female centric professional organizations= . Paying it forward however I can. 



On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 12:48 PM,= L=C3=A6titia Avrot <laetitia.avrot@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Boriss


I think excluding men from certain activities can be positive in the goal of= making women feel welcomed. For instance: Women-only IRC/Slack channels can= be a good thing. Women-only Hackathon can also help in making women feel we= lcomed.


I strongly disagree. I w= ant everyone to feel welcome, whatever their gender is. If you start creatin= g little worlds without men, first you exclude people and that's a negative m= essage to give and then it's totally artificial as our world is populated wi= th both men and women. So if we feel there is a problem with with women repr= esentation in our community, we need to find a solution together. Men and wo= men both have brain, so they can both come with creative ideas.

Cheers,

= L=C3=A6titia

= --Apple-Mail-2A7CA8D1-1011-433F-9A8C-ED2762E99350--