Subject: List Message Footer

From: David Blewett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:49:45 -0400

Hi All:

I was wondering if it would be possible to add the Message-ID that is
displayed in the header of messages on the web interface to the footer
that is attached to each message that's delivered via email? It would
be very handy to have a link to be able to give to someone for a
specific message if you only interact with the lists via email.

David

I.e. add something like this:
Message-ID: http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/[email-masked]

to this:
--
Sent via pgsql-general mailing list ([email-masked])
To make changes to your subscription:
http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:20:48 -0400

> specific message if you only interact with the lists via email.

The Message-Id is already in the headers of the message ... you just
have to expand them, because normally it's not displayed by your email
program.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

---

From: David Blewett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:01:21 -0400

> have to expand them, because normally it's not displayed by your email

I know I'll get a groan for this, but GMail doesn't actually display
them in the web interface. Even if you click Show Details, it only has
From, To, CC, Date and Subject. I see you recently added the ability
to paste that ID into the search box to pull up specific messages, but
wouldn't be easier to have the direct link to share in IRC/IM
whatever?

David

---

From: Tino Wildenhain <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:02:59 +0100

> have to expand them, because normally it's not displayed by your email
Thats correct but it would be nice to not only have the link to the
overall web interface there but also the complete link to the
message in the archive. E.g, what is there:

List-Archive: <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www>

and

Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

but you have a hard time finding the actual post you are reading
in your mail client in the web archive for reference.

I'm not sure however if there is a pre defined Header field
for this or if it would be wise/allowed to give the
full URL in the List-Archive header.

Regards
Tino

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:10:12 -0400 (EDT)

> wouldn't be easier to have the direct link to share in IRC/IM

Groan!  ;-)

OK, with that out of the way, when reading a Gmail email, on the far
right of the email message box you will see a down-arrow, right next to
"Reply" and far right of "show details".

Click on that, and choose "Show original".  You will then see the
Message-ID:

	Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[email-masked]>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---

From: David Blewett <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:12:44 -0400

> Groan!  ;-)

Heh, I'll go back to my hole now.

David

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:16:17 -0400

> wouldn't be easier to have the direct link to share in IRC/IM

Well, there are several problems with this, one of which is that it
won't work except for email delivered by majordomo.  So if you're on CC
for an email, it won't have the footer.

The second problem is that I don't think we can tweak Majordomo easily
to include it :-)  Besides, it falls on Marc Fournier's court and I
don't have access to that.  Good luck convincing Marc to do this.

As for Gmail, it is very inconvenient but it is there -- you need to
click on "show original".

Maybe if enough people asked Google to implement display of Message-Id ...

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:24:41 -0700

> have to expand them, because normally it's not displayed by your email

Yes but that isn't handy, which was a requirement of the problem he was
trying to solve. I think having a link at the bottom of the email that
could automatically take you to the specific thread at archives is a
marvelous idea.

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
PostgreSQL - XMPP: [email-masked]
   Consulting, Development, Support, Training
   503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
   The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:49:38 -0400

> could automatically take you to the specific thread at archives is a

I suggest somebody talk to the Mj2 developers about this.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:54:30 -0700

> I suggest somebody talk to the Mj2 developers about this.

:P

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:23:07 +0100

> Maybe if enough people asked Google to implement display of Message-Id ...

I'm sure someone who speaks the language could whack up something in
greasemonkey for example to make it more readily available. It was
pretty simple to do it as an addon to thunderbird
(http://blog.hagander.net/archives/130-A-Thunderbird-extension-for-the-archives.html)

That would work regardless of if you get the mail from majordomo or as a
direct CC.

Putting it in the footer will also leave us with mails with a lot of
different links in them in the end, from people who respond without
cutting (with a mua that doesn't recognize the signature) the end of the
mail.

//Magnus

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:33:39 -0300 (ADT)

Have to see with this email, but should be done now ... let's see how this 
one comes through though ...

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009, David Blewett wrote:

> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list ([email-masked])
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:21:27 -0400

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> Have to see with this email, but should be done now ... let's see how 
> this one comes through though ...

BTW if you really want to do this, please apply the patch I posted to
the Mj2-dev list.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:26:40 -0300 (ADT)

following the rest of the thread, I got the feel that nobody really likes 
the idea ... especially since the information is already part of the 
message headers ...

----

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:29:02 -0400

> the idea ... especially since the information is already part of the  

Well, Tom doesn't like it, Magnus doesn't either, I don't like it ...
but the unwashed masses?  I'm not so sure.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:35:34 -0300 (ADT)

> but the unwashed masses?  I'm not so sure.

I'm flexible on it ... not sure what it gains since the information is 
already present ...

----

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:46:15 -0700

> I'm flexible on it ... not sure what it gains since the information is 

The information isn't already present. That is the problem. Please do
not be fooled by the ridiculous suggestion that people should, "view
source" or "expand all headers".

We started down this path of hacking together our infrastructure based
on msgids in the first place. Let's at least make it easy for people.

(commit fest pages, searching for msgid via the archive search box etc).

The msgid has basically become the community PRIMARY KEY :P
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:48:59 -0400 (EDT)

> but the unwashed masses?  I'm not so sure.

I don't like it either.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:04:22 -0300 (ADT)

>> but the unwashed masses?  I'm not so sure.

But, the question is: why?  and not just to you, but Tom/Magnus/Alvarre 
... I'm not advocating for, I'm just curious why ppl are against ...

----

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:10:26 -0400 (EDT)

> ... I'm not advocating for, I'm just curious why ppl are against ...

Yea, I should have stated that.  I think the footer is full enough and I
just don't see enough demand for URL lookups to warrant it.

---

From: Greg Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:27:19 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I think the footer is full enough and I just don't see enough demand for 
> URL lookups to warrant it.

You could make an argument that anything that makes the whole mailing 
list/Commitfest interface easier is worthwhile to implement even if there 
isn't much demand outside of that context.

In addition to that, I know I regularly come across messages in the 
archives via web searching that lead me to list aggregators like MarkMail, 
and since the message ID can't always be found at those it's painful to 
then track that back to where they were in the archives in order to get a 
permanent URL.  This proposal won't fix that for the old messages already 
over there, but those will decrease in proportion moving forward. 
Probably increase visibility to using the archives too.

As for making the footer longer, you might compress the existing bits like 
this:

   --
   Make changes to your [email-masked] subscription at:
   http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

In order to make space for a new line in there.

--
* Greg Smith [email-masked] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

---

From: Tatsuo Ishii <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:33:16 +0900 (JST)

> Probably increase visibility to using the archives too.

+1.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:40:14 -0400

> just don't see enough demand for URL lookups to warrant it.

Same here.  The information is already provided; we don't need to
duplicate it in the footer.  I'm not impressed by the argument that
some folks' mail programs won't dig it out of the headers --- I think
it's about as likely that they won't dig a URL out of a standard footer
either.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:54:32 -0400

> it's about as likely that they won't dig a URL out of a standard footer

The obvious difference is that headers are normally hidden as
uninteresting metadata, whereas footers are shown as normal body text.

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 00:03:48 -0400

Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> I'm not impressed by the argument that

> uninteresting metadata, whereas footers are shown as normal body text.

Programs that know what a footer is might well not do that.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:11:08 -0700

> uninteresting metadata, whereas footers are shown as normal body text.

Right. Which makes it immediately available and immediately usable.
Message headers are not usable in any form right now. Right now they are
"just a key". I am proposing making that key useful. We already have the
infrastructure from the commit fest pages to the archives. By having it
in the body of the message removes a step in reviewing complete threads.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:13:29 -0700

> Programs that know what a footer is might well not do that.

What? I think what you are saying is that programs that know what a
footer that you could turn it off?

If that is what you mean, I would suggest that you are the minority.
Further if you do turn off headers, why do you care?

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Guillaume Smet <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:51:38 +0100

Greg Smith a écrit :
>> I think the footer is full enough and I just don't see enough demand
>> for URL lookups to warrant it.
> 
> list/Commitfest interface easier is worthwhile to implement even if
> there isn't much demand outside of that context.

Well, I think there is. On the IRC channel, I often reference emails
from the archives (and I'm not the only one, of course) and it's really
a pain currently to dig into my GMail box, find the right email then
search in the archives (the search by message id thing added by Alvaro
recently is a nice thing but it's still far too many clicks). And as
Greg mentioned it, it's exactly the same problem for mailing list
archives out there (they are far better referenced than our archives are).

As for developing GreaseMonkey scripts, I don't see the point of
developing one script per website (and one extension per MUA). Moreover,
GreaseMonkey doesn't invent information, it just manipulates DOM. I may
be wrong but I didn't find the message id in GMail DOM (that said, it
might be here, I didn't spend too much time on it).

The archives are really the heart of PostgreSQL development and having
the URL of a message at the bottom of it would be a time saving
enhancement. I personnaly prefer spending my time answering questions
than digging into the archives for the one email in a thread I wanted to
point out.

I'm not sure it's a good idea for every list but at least on -hackers
and -performance (which are the lists cited the most), it could save
quite a lot of time to more people than you think. Note that on these
very lists, there are really few people not cutting out the footer when
answering.

-- 
Guillaume

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:09:09 +0200

> one comes through though ...

The correct separator for a footer is <dash><dash><space><newline>.  Whatever 
you do, please put that back the way it was.

I'm opposed to longer footers as well, FWIW.

> > http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/Pine.LNX.4.64.0903172219120.272
> >[email-masked]
> >
> > to this:
> > --
> -
> -
> Archives URL:
> http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/$MESSAGE_ID

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 21:19:33 +0200

On Wednesday 18 March 2009 12:09:09 Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> The correct separator for a footer is <dash><dash><space><newline>. 
> Whatever you do, please put that back the way it was.

Please fix this immediately.  All the other mailing lists are also affected.  
Very annoying ...

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:36:41 -0700

> Please fix this immediately.  All the other mailing lists are also affected.  

Yes please. I note that there is a clear demand for the idea that I
presented and I would like it implement. Tatsuo, Myself, Greg Smith,
Tino, Guillaume have all mentioned they like the idea.

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:43:05 +0100

> than digging into the archives for the one email in a thread I wanted to

The links are already *in* the archives. Alvaro added that. It's at the
bottom of the header of every message.

If we want to cater for *other* archives, we need to put it in the
message itself - assuming they don't show it somewhere.

//Magnus

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:44:03 +0000

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Joshua D. Drake <[email-masked]> wrote:

> presented and I would like it implement.

What idea? I must be missing an email. I saw an email from David
Blewett outlining an idea starting this thread - did you have another
proprosal?

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK:   http://www.enterprisedb.com

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:55:11 -0400

> Programs that know what a footer is might well not do that.

There are no such programs.  Turning off footers ("signatures") is
dangerous, because the delimiters are not widespread, so hiding them
risks hiding important data.  Actually what some programs do is show
them in a different, less visible color or font, for example; but I have
never seen one that hides them completely.

(I think the "tin" usenet reader used to have an option to hide
signatures.  I never knew a person that turned the option on.  I am also
unaware of whether tin still exists ...)

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:59:00 -0700

> Blewett outlining an idea starting this thread - did you have another

I suggested that the footer of emails coming through the lists include a
link directly to the message in the archives. Since the messageid is
what is used to track threads via the commit fest as well, it creates a
very simple linked bit of information.

It will also allow us to more easily track threads because I can click
on the email and have it take me directly to the thread at archives.

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:38:08 -0400 (EDT)

> Tino, Guillaume have all mentioned they like the idea.

I think there is confusion here.  Peter is saying the signature marker
has changed, and Joshua thinks Peter is talking about the footer URL.

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:56:21 +0000

> very simple linked bit of information.

That's exactly what David suggested originally:

===
===

I think it'll look ugly, but could be useful. Not that it bothers me
much either way :-p

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:05:47 -0700

> I think it'll look ugly, but could be useful. Not that it bothers me

Oh I do agree that it will be ugly but its the useful I am after :). I
think I would be more apt to just do:

ID:
http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/[email-masked]

It doesn't really matter that it is the message id, just that it is the
link to the thread.

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:12:16 -0300 (ADT)

try that

----

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 21:38:32 -0400

> try that

It looks better now, but please get rid of the initial lone -.  It was
used to separate multiple entries when we had several footers and chose
one at random, but now that all messages use the same footer, it is no
longer necessary.

Please also make sure you reset the setting for pgsql-hackers to
default, because I changed that one individually.

Thanks.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:51:58 -0300 (ADT)

done and done

----

---

From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:18:56 -0700

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 03:55:11PM -0400, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > >> I'm not impressed by the argument that some folks' mail
> > >> programs won't dig it out of the headers --- I think it's about
> > >> as likely that they won't dig a URL out of a standard footer
> > >> either.
> > 
> them in a different, less visible color or font, for example; but I
> have never seen one that hides them completely.
> 
> signatures.  I never knew a person that turned the option on.  I am
> also unaware of whether tin still exists ...)

Tin still exists, and is maintained as far as I know :)

Cheers,
David.
-- 
David Fetter <[email-masked]> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778  AIM: dfetter666  Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter      XMPP: [email-masked]

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

---

From: Jaime Casanova <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:07:24 -0500

> never seen one that hides them completely.

Actually, gmails hides footers (instead puts a message to expand the
footer)... is very annoying because sometimes hides usefull
information, but...

-- 
Atentamente,
Jaime Casanova
Soporte y capacitación de PostgreSQL
Asesoría y desarrollo de sistemas
Guayaquil - Ecuador
Cel. +59387171157