Subject: jobs.postgresql.org text.

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 02 Dec 2003 16:22:21 -0500

until we get something better, can someone with proper access put the
following file up on jobs.postgresql.org? (or give me access to do it) 
I am going to put this text on techdocs.postgresql.org/jobs/ as well. 

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:41:54 -0800

Robert,

> I am going to put this text on techdocs.postgresql.org/jobs/ as well. 

Funny you should mention this.   My partner just today accepted my proposal 
that we develop a web app for jobs.postgresql.org in exchange for publicity 
for our/his consulting business (i.e. a "Developed by Ascher Consulting" link 
on the bottom of the screen somewhere).

We expect to be able to create something and have it running by the end of 
January, barring unexpected delays.

However, I have some questions for this group:

1) is that kind of publicity for a donor acceptable?
2) How soon will we have stable templates/css pages for www.postgresql.org 
Ver3?   We need these to design the pages.
3) we have a spec for the application.    Does anyone want to comment on it?  
I'll send it va PDF.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

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From: Francisco <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:34:18 -0500 (EST)

> 3) we have a spec for the application.    Does anyone want to comment on it?

Any reason why you could not just put a URL? This way anyone interested in
providing feedback can do so.

In the mean time I am interested in providing feedback.

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:08:47 -0800

Francisco,

cc'd to the list so that I don't have to have this discussion twice.

> I found the first page a little confusing.
> If you send me the text I could re-write it and send you back what I think
> may be a bit clearer and perhaps shorter.

Maybe after we've resolved the actual issues with the planned functionality.  
AFAIC, nobody but the www list and maybe core needs to understand this spec.

> On the first page I would like to better understand what you mean by
> "Applications will be received by the jobs... and forwarded
> on to a specified email... to prevent email spiders? I wasn't clear after
> that what will be emailed to users? The contact info?

In other words:
Employers will enter jobs and their contact info.  The jobs but *not* the 
contact info will be made public.
Applicants will fill out a form, and the system will e-mail its contents (and 
any attached resume) to the employer.

There are a few reasons for doing things this way rather than simply posting 
the employer's contact info and letting people contact them on their own.  
These include:
-- Protection for employers from being bombarded with spam every time they 
post an ad;
-- Protection for our job listings from being "mined" by an agency or online 
job web site;
-- Preserving the possibility of eventually turing jobs.postgresql.org into a 
revenue stream to support postgresql.

> -Publicly accessible jobs search screen
> You mention a job type there. I was thinking that maybe we may be better
> off such option. This can be restrictive and cause some confusion. For
> instance prospective employeers may not be sure which category a job
> should go under. Or someone may miss out a job because it was
> miss-classified.

I disagree very strongly.  If this site gets as much use as we want it to, we 
need some kind of categorization to let searchers filter.   Pretty much every 
other job listing service in the world has job categories; I don't see 
bucking the trend on this one.

Certainly we want to stick to a small number of easy-to-understand categories.  
For example, I was thinking of:
Database Administrator (DBA), Software Development, Performance Tuning, 
PostgreSQL Support, General System Administrator, Training, and Other.

> From company to company, local to local, country to country views on a set
> of job duties may vary and type may just be a point of confusion.

Or may not.   Look, from my perspective, I don't want to even see jobs in the 
"General System Administrator" category; they don't apply to me.   Other 
applicants may *only* be qualified for training.  They should be allowed to 
filter by this, just like applicants will filter by Full-Time, Part-Time, or 
Consultant to match their availability.

> You mention in there "Resume Upload". I don't think this is the right
> place to upload a resume. I think people looking for jobs should be able
> to upload a resume for their profile. 

We will not be storing applicant profiles on the system.   This would entail 
about 30 hours of additional work, half of which for security, and we're not 
going to do it.  Also, in the current economy, applicant profile storage 
would bloat the database and become and administrative headache.

> ps. It put a smile on my face the requirement to support 10,000 users per
> day. I can only hope for the site getting that busy. I would have a better
> chance of working with PostgreSQL for a living if the site ever because
> that busy. :-)

Actually, I was thinking 10,000 *applicants* per day; if we got as much as 100 
employers per day, I'd be ecstatic.   I doubt DICE.com gets 10,000 employers 
per day....

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:50:34 -0800

Marc,

> What information is provided about the "employer"?  I take it company name
> and such is still provided?
> 

Yes, we were planning on company name.

Also, keep in mind that jobs have to be "approved" by the site admins before 
they go up.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:01:59 -0400 (AST)

> Employers will enter jobs and their contact info.  The jobs but *not*
> the contact info will be made public. Applicants will fill out a form,
> and the system will e-mail its contents (and any attached resume) to the
> employer.
>

Altho I agree with all three reasons, in this day and age of heavy spam, I
think 1 is definitely the big one ... but ...

> Certainly we want to stick to a small number of easy-to-understand
> categories.  For example, I was thinking of: Database Administrator
> (DBA), Software Development, Performance Tuning, PostgreSQL Support,
> General System Administrator, Training, and Other.

Will cross-categories be permitted?  Maybe a max of 2 or 3 per job
description, but would provide a bit better coverage where some overlap
may be appropriate?

> Consultant to match their availability.

Point: there is nothing that stops an applicant from searching other
categories ... if they can't find something under "DBA", but are wondering
if something is available under GSA, they can still go check it out ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:18:43 -0400 (AST)

> Also, keep in mind that jobs have to be "approved" by the site admins before

Granted, the only reason I was wondering is that there are some ppl out
there that are "employer conscious", in that some places, no matter how
good the money, they just won't work for.  So knowing the who before
applying tends to be important ...

----

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:20:21 -0500 (EST)

> any attached resume) to the employer.

Ok. Understand it better now.
Wouldn't it be better to have the resumes on the service and to just have
prospective employees be able to have multiple resumes? This way when
there is an application they can tell the system which resume to point to
for that particular application.

Besides convenience for the prospective employee there is an extra
advantage. Reduced potential liability. If you EVER send attachments to
prospective employers what will happen if someone fakes an email as coming
from you and sends a trojan or a virus? Sure you will be able to prove
that it didn't come from you, but that is one employer that may shy away
from user the service. If you NEVER send attachements then you can even
wwarn people that any email coming their way with an attachemtn from your
service that the attachment should NOT be looked at.

> bucking the trend on this one.

Really?
I have never seen categories in the sense you are talking about. My
experience is with Hotjobs, Monster and a few others. They have categories
like IT, programmer, etc.. but these are very general categories and most
of the time I have never used them to look for a job. I usually use the
'keywoard' search functionality.

> PostgreSQL Support, General System Administrator, Training, and Other.

Not a bad list, but the system should be flexible so the administrators
can add.

> would bloat the database and become and administrative headache.

So people are going to attach or cut/paste their resumes?
Sounds cumbersome. Just as you said above about doing something primarily
because every one else does it, storing the resume would go under the same
category. Plain text should not text so much space to store and could
possibly even be compressed.

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:22:28 -0500 (EST)

> if something is available under GSA, they can still go check it out ...

My feeling is that for some time there will be few jobs posted and people
may probably just take a look at all jobs posted. I really hope/wish/dream
of when it will be busier than that., I don't think it will be any
time soon, if ever.

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:23:44 -0500 (EST)

> applying tends to be important ...

I think at the very least Employer name and location for the job. Some
companies may have offices in several cities or may be thinking of opening
a new office.

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:04:18 -0400 (AST)

> of when it will be busier than that., I don't think it will be any

I would image that there would be an 'All' category, no?

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:05:23 -0400 (AST)

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> companies may have offices in several cities or may be thinking of
> opening a new office.

re: location ... good point ... again, as the system 'fills up', the
ability to just list jobs in specific locations (as well as All) should be
available ...

----

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:40:07 -0500 (EST)

> I would image that there would be an 'All' category, no?

Either that or if all selections are blank.

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 22:41:46 -0500 (EST)

> ability to just list jobs in specific locations (as well as All) should be

Which brings up another point. I think most companies will NOT pay for
relocation. I think there should be a field "pay for relocation" which
should default to no. This for the rare case for companies willing to pay
some/all of the relocation expense.

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:53:10 -0800

Francisco,

> for that particular application.

But you've missed two important points I addressed in my earlier e-mails:

1) We (my team) does not want to code that functionality.  It would expand the 
scope of the project by at least 75% and we're just not interested.  If you 
want to add that to what we contribute, you are welcome to do that later.

2) Storing resumes, employee profiles, etc., will have significantly greater 
storage and security requirements than the storage of job listings, and these 
issues will have to be addressed.  Using our spec, they can be 
ignored/postponed.

>If you EVER send attachments to
> from you and sends a trojan or a virus? 

Mmmm... yeah, we'd better put in a filter to limit the MIME encoding and 
extensions of resume attachements to DOC, PDF, WPD, TXT & SXW.

> like IT, programmer, etc.. 

Precisely.   And just becuase you don't use them doesn't mean that others do 
not.

> Not a bad list, but the system should be flexible so the administrators

Maybe.  I can see adding a couple new categories after the system is launched 
and we get feedback from the users.   Otherwise, I think the categories 
should be rather inflexible; otherwise we risk ending up with 80 categories, 
50% of which have only one job in them.

> Sounds cumbersome.

Well, if you don't like it, you're welcome to ready your PHP skills.  After 
you draft a spec to deal with the security issues raised by online storage of 
resumes ....

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:02:46 -0800

People,

> ability to just list jobs in specific locations (as well as All) should be

We are planning a free-text search on "location", most likely.  Unfortunately, 
it's not really practical to have a list of locations for a worldwide 
application.

And of course there will be a "all" search for categories.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

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From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:02:40 -0800

On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 09:02:46AM -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> People,
> 
> > re: location ... good point ... again, as the system 'fills up',
> > the ability to just list jobs in specific locations (as well as
> > All) should be available ...
> 
> We are planning a free-text search on "location", most likely.
> Unfortunately, it's not really practical to have a list of locations
> for a worldwide application.

I have a framework that can come pretty close w/Javascript and some
ISO standard country/subcountry designations. :)

> And of course there will be a "all" search for categories.

Yay!

Cheers,
D
-- 
David Fetter [email-masked] http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100    cell: +1 415 235 3778

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:02:02 -0400 (AST)

> ISO standard country/subcountry designations. :)

If you use the Geo::IP package, when someone hits the site, it could
auto-matically display listing for their location too ...

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From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:19:51 -0800

On Tue, Dec 16, 2003 at 09:02:02PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > > > re: location ... good point ... again, as the system 'fills
> > > > up', the ability to just list jobs in specific locations (as
> > > > well as All) should be available ...
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, it's not really practical to have a list of
> > > locations for a worldwide application.
> >
> > I have a framework that can come pretty close w/Javascript and
> > some ISO standard country/subcountry designations. :)
> 

It's the Geo::IP::ICBM module that has me a little worried. ;)

Cheers,
D(uck and cover)

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From: Francisco Reyes <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 14:31:31 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

> 1) We (my team) does not want to code that functionality.

Ok so do what you can and then others, including myself, could later on
decide if they want to pickup the ball and add the extra functionality.

> extensions of resume attachements to DOC, PDF, WPD, TXT & SXW.

I believe DOC files can have viruses in them.
As long as we allow attachments this will be an issue. I am not saying you
should not continue with the exact same plans you have, just that we
should consider what we want to do for the long term.

> 50% of which have only one job in them.

Although I think it's great you are thinking ahead I don't think we will
be flooded with postings that categories will be a problem. Of all the
problems this project could possibly have I really wish someday too many
postings will be one. I just don't think it will happen any time soon. I
wish/hope I am wrong on that though. :-)

> you draft a spec to deal with the security issues raised by online storage of

Go ahead and do the system as you planned. We can then decide what's next
after we have something in place. I think you and your team are doing
probably the most difficult part. Getting the project off the ground. I
don't think we should do anything to slow you down or distract you othen
that just give feedback when you request it.

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 16:00:29 -0400 (AST)

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Francisco Reyes wrote:

> I believe DOC files can have viruses in them. As long as we allow
> attachments this will be an issue. I am not saying you should not
> continue with the exact same plans you have, just that we should
> consider what we want to do for the long term.

Note that right now, on that VM, its not setup, but all incoming and
outgoing email on the main mailing list VM *is* virus checked through
clamav ... there is no reason why I can't enable that on the VM that jobs
is on as well, to help safeguard for this ...

> wish/hope I am wrong on that though. :-)

Falls under: rather have it planned for, then have to try and implement it
later ... included from the onset creates no problems, trying to add it in
later could be a nightmare ...

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