Subject: (not) powered by PostgreSQL

From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:33:05 +0300

Greetings!

Sort of addition for my larger mail.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many cute dolphins plastered all over 
the web and so few cute elephants (even for projects that *do* support PgSQL)?

The answer is simple. If I need to get a cute dolphin, I go to www.mysql.com, 
click on Download and there is a conveniently highlighted "Logos" entry.

If I need to get a cute elephant I go to postgresql.org, advocacy.postgresql.org 
and click around until I find... nothing. Then (maybe) I go to the search page, 
enter "logo" and get maillist messages where people complain that they can't 
find a cute elephant either. The replies (finally) contain links to pgsql.com 
where the logos are. Cute, indeed.

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:54:55 -0400 (AST)

right now, there are two powered by images available that I'm aware of
(that really do need to be moved to the www.postgresql.org site iself):

the nicer (IMHO) of the two:

  http://www.pgsql.com/graphics/propaganda/poweredby_postgresql.png

the other:

  http://www.pgsql.com/graphics/propaganda/pg-power.jpg

I didn't make them, they were submit'd by other users a very very long
time back ...

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote:

> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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From: Robert Bernier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:05:30 -0500

You know Marc I've got access to a lot of students who do multi-media 
studies. As part of the co-op program the students get involved creating 
websites for real sites. What do think, want to exploit a team of keeners?

Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [email-masked]
>
>  
>

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:09:19 -0400 (AST)

exploiting students is always good, but for a powerby logo, how do you
think on improving the simplicity of the two below?  then again, I
considering myself moderately dead creatively ... :)

thing is, for a poweredby, I would think small/simple is the key, since
you don't want to detract from the web site its posted on, or cause
high-load times for the image itself ...

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From: Robert Bernier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:30:54 -0500

Actually I was thinking in bigger terms ie: put a new face on the entire 
website. The person you're originally responding to started out his 
thread by talking about rebuilding the site. I think that most 
'ordinary' people have this idea in their head that if a site is good 
it's because it always changes.

Assuming that you are open to the idea it means also that there's a lot 
of work involved. Why not let other people do it and let them get credit 
for it? This is what the co-op program is meant to do anyways.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:41:04 -0400 (AST)

> for it? This is what the co-op program is meant to do anyways.

To be honest ... I think there are about a half dozen ppl looking at
're-writing' the site now :(  the big problem I think that ppl are hitting
righ tnow is "what technology to use" :)  We've had everything from
OpenACS to Bricolage to straight PHP to ...

Dave, what is the status of Adrian(?)'s work?  Everyone should be back
from holidays now, no?

Josh/Dave/RobertT ... is what RobertB proposing maybe something that could
be focused on the Advocacy site itself?

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From: Robert Bernier <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:51:29 -0500

Run it like a contract. Just describe how you update and maintain the 
site and ask that all ideas must be compliant with these practices. The 
reward is a 'credit' link.

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From: Sai Hertz And Control Systems <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:39:12 +0530

Hello Marc G. Fournier  ,

>OpenACS to Bricolage to straight PHP to ...
Didi you said phpnuke.
yes. this would be good and have themes support we would be up in few 
seconds

>be focused on the Advocacy site itself?
Regards
Vishal Kashyap

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:48:22 -0400 (AST)

> yes. this would be good and have themes support we would be up in few

The thing is, everyone seems to have their own "favorite CMS/technology"
:)

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From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:13:59 +0300

Hi!

> OpenACS to Bricolage to straight PHP to ...

Well, the "problem" with my proposals is that they don't need need any 
technology and very little time to be implemented. That is, assuming that 
someone is actually *working* on the website.

---

From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:17:26 +0300

Hi!

> yes. this would be good and have themes support we would be up in few 

This is a joke, right? PHPNuke is MySQL-only. "PostgreSQL is so broken they had 
to use MySQL for their website needs!"

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From: "Chris Travers" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:18:31 +0700

Maybe we could port PHPNuke to PostgreSQL and then say, MySQL is so broken
we had to port PHPNuke to PostgreSQL :-)

Best Wishes
Chris Travers

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From: Evil Azrael <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:13:40 +0100

Hi!

CT> Maybe we could port PHPNuke to PostgreSQL and then say, MySQL is so broken
CT> we had to port PHPNuke to PostgreSQL :-)

AFAIR there is/was a version supporting PostgreSQL. 6.3 or 6.x . I had
installed it for a test run. And i would never ever install MySQL.
A friend showed me yesterday a PostgreSQL port of PHPNuke
(http://www.bluewolverine.com/portal/html/index.php)  but this seems
to be really broken (I think it´s the 7.2/7.3 incompatibility).

If they really want to use a CMS, they should take a real one.
EzPublish looks very nice and supports PostgreSQL.

Christoph Nelles
[email-masked]

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:21:02 -0800

Hello,

  Personally I think that anything that we code the website in, should 
be mirrorable. The fact that we
have a single point of failure (no offense Marc) and that point have 
failure has shown itself multiple
times in the last twelve months is really a bad thing.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

Robert Bernier wrote:

> site and ask that all ideas must be compliant with these practices. 
> The reward is a 'credit' link.
>
>
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if 
> your
>      joining column's datatypes do not match

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - [email-masked] - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:49:39 -0400 (AST)

> times in the last twelve months is really a bad thing.

Ummm, but the site is mirrorable, and has been for months now ... how else
do you think we have so many mirrors right now?  Both Robert and Dave went
to great pains to make sure that it was mirrorable ...

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:55:36 -0800

>to great pains to make sure that it was mirrorable ...
The website is mirroable? When we last spoke (granted is was several 
months ago, possibly longer)
the website wasn't mirroable.

Do we have dynamic DNS or someone who is a failover point so we never 
loose connectivity?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:59:47 -0400 (AST)

> Do we have dynamic DNS or someone who is a failover point so we never

DNS has been mirrored through lerctr.org since before this past summer:

Name Server:NS-A.LERCTR.ORG
Name Server:NS.HUB.ORG
Name Server:NS-B.LERCTR.ORG
Name Server:NS2.HUB.ORG
Name Server:NS3.HUB.ORG

And the web is currently being mirrored to ... 106 sites right now,
according to DNS ...

ftp is beign mirrored to 103 sites ...

last i heard, a couple of sites were mirroring cvs as well, but they
aren't for others to use, only to provide redundancy ...

----

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:46:54 +0100

> ftp is beign mirrored to 103 sites ...

Would it be possible to make the FTP mirrors all use the same directory 
structure?  Currently, to pick random examples, we have

ftp://ftp.postgresql.org/pub/v7.4.1
ftp://ftp.it.postgresql.org/mirror/postgresql/v7.4.1
ftp://ftp.fr.postgresql.org/v7.4.1
ftp://ftp.au.postgresql.org/...? I can't even find it right away.

Surely, setting up a virtual host on an FTP server shouldn't be that 
hard?

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From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:56:51 -0300

> ftp://ftp.au.postgresql.org/...? I can't even find it right away.

I think the problem is that the people in charge don't always care about
that.  For a very stupid example, see ftp.cl.postgresql.org where
Postgres is located in the /pub/GNU dir, and it is the only subdir of
it.  Isn't that silly?

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"La experiencia nos dice que el hombre peló millones de veces las patatas,
pero era forzoso admitir la posibilidad de que en un caso entre millones,
las patatas pelarían al hombre" (Ijon Tichy)

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:18:44 +0100

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> > Would it be possible to make the FTP mirrors all use the same
> > directory structure?  Currently, to pick random examples, we have
> >
> I think the problem is that the people in charge don't always care
> about that.  For a very stupid example, see ftp.cl.postgresql.org
> where Postgres is located in the /pub/GNU dir, and it is the only
> subdir of it.  Isn't that silly?

If they don't care, don't let them be (official) mirrors.

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Jan 2004 16:21:46 -0500

> If they don't care, don't let them be (official) mirrors.

Hmm... I think the current view is it's better to have a mirror with a
different directory than no mirror at all. it's easily dealt with from
the website side of things but just generating the appropriate links. do
you have a breakdown on what the official directory structure ought to
look like, and how many mirrors would be affected if we dropped them for
non-compliance?  

(note even if we don't shut them off, i do think we could suggest a
"preferred directory structure" in the non-existent "howto mirror" doc
that dave and i send out)

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:58:06 +0100

Robert Treat wrote:
> do you have a breakdown on what the official directory
> structure ought to look like, and how many mirrors would be affected
> if we dropped them for non-compliance?

I think the directory structure should mirror exactly 
ftp.postgresql.org, so I can go to ftp.xx.postgresql.org and find the 
same things in the same places.  If someone wants to mirror with 
arbitrary directory structure, they can do that, but since you're going 
to have to go through the web page anyway they don't have to carry the 
postgresql.org domain at all.

Right now, virtually no mirrors follow that rule.  Is it so hard to set 
up virtual hosts on ftp servers?

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From: "Ricardo Ryoiti S. Junior" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:25:45 -0200 (E. South America Daylight Time)

Hi,

> up virtual hosts on ftp servers?

	Regardless of virtualhosts, I think that ftp.postgresql.org's own
FTP server should be structured like /pub/PostgreSQL/v7.4.1... That's how
our mirror is setup and I believe that's the cleanest way to have more
than one mirror in the same server. This is also a good practice, since
not all (including ours) ftp daemons support virtual hosts.

	If we had all directories directly after /pub, there would be more
than 30 subdirectories, all mixed up: NetBSD, PostgreSQL, etc. Thus,
setting our mirror just like PostgreSQL's, without virtualhost, would be
very confusing for our clients.

	I agree that every mirror should use the same directory structure,
but asking everyone to place everything directly after /pub or setting up
virtualhosts doesn't seem to be plausible, mainly because there're a lot
of mirrors out there.

	So I think that the easiest (and cleanest) way is to change
postgresql's ftp to /pub/postgresql, asking new and current mirrors to
adopt that approach. It's much easier than asking for virtualhosts.  Not
just because I wouldn't have to change my setup :) but also because many
projects with mirrors do that successfully.
	Or, at least a /pub/postgresql link to the actual mirror directory
could be used...

	[]s
	Ricardo.

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From: Jussi Mikkola <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:43:40 +0200

>up virtual hosts on ftp servers?
I don't have first hand experience, but I think the mirrors have their 
own way to do things, and that is what they want to follow. I looked at 
www.se.postgresql.org, and that seems to be ftp.sunet.se. It mirrors 
_very_ many web sites, distributions, etc. (I looked at ftp.funet.fi, 
and they have content even for hp48sx (calculator). They have about 1 
terabyte of software. ). So I don't think they want to do much work to 
have something somewhere. You might ask them nicely, what they think, 
and they will propably answer, but if you insist, that they will do 
something, then they propably prefer not to mirror.

In principle, the more mirrors there are, the faster it is to download.

I think that we need to take care of it, that the links point to the 
right place in the mirror site.

Rgs,

Jussi

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From: "scott.marlowe" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:57:36 -0700 (MST)

> and they have content even for hp48sx (calculator). They have about 1 

They even have a version of spice for that thing.  (I own two 48Gs with 
expanded memory, it works quite well.)  I can still rememeber when I got 
good enough to enter nodal diagrams about as fast as the prof would write 
them on the board and having the answer about the time he finished.  
sigh...

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:07:54 -0400 (AST)

I have nothing against making that change on the mail server, should have
thought of that long ago, but, then again, nobody else has either ...

This is going to involve a massive update on all the mirrors, since
effectively everything will be moving at once ... is this something
everyone agrees should happen, before I do it?

----

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:16:37 +0100

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> I have nothing against making that change on the mail server, should
> have thought of that long ago, but, then again, nobody else has
> either ...

If you look at the directory structures on the mirrors, only a few of 
them would benefit from this.  Most likely, you'd just add another 
directory level for most people while not unifying much.

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 01:19:58 -0500

couple of quick items: s/mail/main/  right?
and let's CC in the web group so they know what were talking about eh? (and 
further reponses could probably trim -advocacy)

ok... so how much stuff will it break if we change the layout? I'm thinking 
there are places where we may be pointing directly into the ftp sites that 
might need the urls changed... anyone want to do some looking?

Dave, would we have to update all the mirror sites directory layouts in the 
mirror system?

Robert Treat