Subject: Re: PGDN and CVS

From: "Magnus Hagander" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:31:49 +0200

> 	1.	Do we want to put the static PGDN files in CVS 
> anyway? Should we keep the PGDN files separate not mixing 
> with the current site's CVS? 
> 
> 	 
> 
> Yes, we do want them in CVS because we build the entire from 
> there & the backend database. we don't want to start pulling 
> in content from additional places as that just makes it much 
> harder to rebuild the servers if there is ever a problem.

While I agree with you in general, here's a point I'd liek to add. :-)

Gevik, if I get your latest blog post right, you are back to a custom
CMS and not using Drupal? Then, IMHO, another option is if you can build
the site completely with PHP code on our site framework and store all
the data in the site database. In this case I see no more reason to
store the static pages for this one than there is for the docs or other
parts of the site. But this assumes that *all* the code required to
maintain the site is in our framework, and we're not relying on an
outside CMS.

//Magnus

---

From: "Gevik babakhani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:57:15 +0200

I have hacked with the current framework while ago. I almost know how things
work. (Dave has been a great help for my questions...).

My plan is to transfer the things I have created with drupal to the current
framework also :)

I was also thinking of letting everything in the site's database. Why would
we want to export things and then re-import them back in the CVS? But then
again this is just my opinion. The decisions are on the masters :)

Gevik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Hagander [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 2:32 PM
> To: Dave Page; Gevik babakhani; [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [pgsql-www] PGDN and CVS
>

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:57:26 -0700

Gevik,

> My plan is to transfer the things I have created with drupal to the
> current framework also :)

Not to discourage you or anything, but I'm extremely skeptical of using a 
custom CMS not supported by an outside project.   What happens if you 
leave?  Why are we re-inventing what 1,000 other CMSes have done before?

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Gevik babakhani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:02:32 +0200

Josh,

I'm not discouraged in anyway... I have just been looking over and over for
a CMS that we could use in our project. Time after time I end up with
commercial products. And even if they are opensource, they need to be so
much customized that one has to put more time in customizing the CMS
framework rather than building the actual requirement.

> From: Josh Berkus [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:57 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: Gevik babakhani; 'Magnus Hagander'; 'Dave Page'
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] PGDN and CVS
> 
> Gevik,
>

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:15:10 -0700

Gevik,

> I'm not discouraged in anyway... I have just been looking over and over
> for a CMS that we could use in our project. Time after time I end up
> with commercial products. And even if they are opensource, they need to
> be so much customized that one has to put more time in customizing the
> CMS framework rather than building the actual requirement.

What is it you're trying to implement, exactly, that you don't find 
supported?  Is it the tree structure?

Even if existing CMSes require customization, I think it'd be better to 
work with that project and try to get them involved in the feature.  As 
far as I know, the only CMS you've really tried is Drupal.   

Both Bricolage and Framewerk are intimate with the PostgreSQL community and 
could be counted on to work with you.  I don't think you even looked at 
Bricolage after Marc set it up.

I also don't think you've evaluated "more time to implement" using valid 
criteria.  If you do a custom CMS, you're going to need to impement all of 
the common stuff yourself:
Authentication
User management (including "e-mail me my password, etc.")
Approval/rights structures
Versioning admin
Editors (inc. wyswyg and/or bbcode edit)
RSS
etc.
Did your really add up coding all of the above compared to customizing an 
existing system?

Again, I'm not trying to discourage you, but from my perspective half a CMS 
is worse than none.

--Josh

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Kenneth Marshall <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:37:37 -0500

Gevik,

I would like to add my support to Josh's statment. It appears that far
too much re-inventing is taking place on the "it's so easy to use and
does all we need" Drupal that would already exist in some of the other
CMS projects that were cursorily looked at when Drupal was chosen.
Bricolage, in particular, has a lot to offer and has a robust development
team.

Ken

---

From: "Gevik babakhani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:45:11 +0200

I just want to get my hands building :)

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:pgsql-www-
> [email-masked]] On Behalf Of Josh Berkus
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 9:15 PM
> To: Gevik babakhani
> Cc: [email-masked]; 'Magnus Hagander'; 'Dave Page'
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match

---

From: "Gevik babakhani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:52:42 +0200

Is this Framewerk the same as www.Framewerk.org?

---

From: "Gavin M. Roy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:02:54 -0700

Yes, is my pet project.  I'll send you some info on the framewerk list.

Gavin

On Sep 21, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Gevik babakhani wrote:

>> Both Bricolage and Framewerk are intimate with the PostgreSQL  
>> community
>> and
>> Again, I'm not trying to discourage you, but from my perspective  
>> half a
>> CMS
>> is worse than none.
>>
>> --Josh
>>
>> --
>> --Josh
>>
>> Josh Berkus
>> Aglio Database Solutions
>> San Francisco
>>
> TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
>

Gavin M. Roy
800 Pound Gorilla
[email-masked]

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:03:44 -0700

Gevik,

> I just want to get my hands building :):)

Oh, I can understand your frustration.   I often feel the same way when 
dealing with GForge.  However, I have a realistic idea on how long it would 
take to implement all the Administrative Crap We Can't Live Without.

> Is this Framewerk the same as www.Framewerk.org?

Yes.  Looks like Gavin has taken the site down pending the release of the new 
version.  Framewerk doesn't have much of a community (yet) but has the 
advantage of having the lead developer on this list (hi, Gavin!).   It's also 
taken care of the admin overhead like users and permissions and stuff.

So if you can't deal with Bric because it's Perl & Template toolkit, then I'd 
talk to Gavin about extending Framewerk.

But please, please, please don't start from scratch!

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Gevik babakhani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:10:01 +0200

Agreed :)

> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:04 PM
> To: Gevik babakhani