Subject: Re: pgsql-committers shouldn't be the default "developers" list

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:23:07 -0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Tom Lane
> Sent: 11 January 2006 04:55
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [pgsql-www] pgsql-committers shouldn't be the 
> default "developers" list
> 
> Recently I've noticed an increasing number of clueless-newbie posts on
> pgsql-committers, eg
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-committers/2006-01/msg00132.php
> You can debate which list such posts might be appropriate for, but
> there is utterly no doubt that -committers ain't it.
> 
> It just occurred to me what the probable explanation for this is:
> since the archives.postgresql.org left-side menu got rearranged,
> pgsql-committers is the list that comes up when you hit "Developers
> lists".  And unlike, say, the front page for pgsql-hackers, there
> is no verbiage whatsoever in the list description that might suggest
> to newbies that this is not the place for their question.
> 
> At minimum the list description needs to be filled in, in a way that
> will discourage people from posting questions there.  Perhaps
> 
> 	This list carries CVS commit log messages, and occasionally
> 	followup discussions arising from them.
> 
> 	If you have a question that is not directly related to a
> 	recent commit, it doesn't belong here.

Done - will appear next time the indexes regenerate.

> But I'd like to suggest also that slavish adherence to alphabetical
> order in the list menus might not be the best thing.  
> Certainly I'd find
> that it usually saves me a click if clicking on "Developers lists"
> brought up -hackers as the default selection.  Similarly, in the "User
> lists" pgsql-admin doesn't seem like the greatest default 
> (hmm, it seems
> like that list's signal-to-noise ratio has dropped lately too...).
> Could we point that one at -general perhaps?

I've changed the default list for Users to -general, Developers to
-hackers and Projects to pgadmin-support. In the longterm I think
Peter's suggestion of having an intro page for each section is probably
best, but that will require code changes that I don't have time for
right now.

Regards, Dave.

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:53:19 -0500

> Done - will appear next time the indexes regenerate.

Looks great, thanks.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:03:48 -0400 (AST)

As someone else suggested, do we want to set Reply-To on that list as 
well, to redirect discussions to -hackers?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Tom Lane wrote:

> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>       choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>       match
>

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:11:05 -0500

> well, to redirect discussions to -hackers?

I don't think we should try to force that to happen.  A fair part of the
followup threads in -committers aren't really very interesting and need
not go to -hackers.  Another problem with adding Reply-To is that by
default a copy will *not* go personally to the particular committer,
which is something that you usually do want to happen when commenting
on a commit.

(BTW, have we yet got things fixed so that all the addresses that appear
as "From:" for committers actually work to forward mail to the
respective person?  Last I checked it seemed not to work for me or
Bruce, but that was awhile ago.)

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:18:03 -0400 (AST)

> Bruce, but that was awhile ago.)

You've lost me on this one ... from how I'm reading it above, that sounds 
like a mail reader issue, but I could definitely be mis-reading ...

----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:36:33 -0500

> like a mail reader issue, but I could definitely be mis-reading ...

What I meant is that, for example, Bruce's commits show up as
	From: [email-masked] (Bruce Momjian)
which is not his real email address.  Some of these addresses actually
work, ie, forward to that committer, but I don't think they all do.
[ tries it... ]  A test mail to [email-masked], which is the way
my commits show up, hasn't come back after several minutes...

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:56:46 -0400 (AST)

> my commits show up, hasn't come back after several minutes...

Nope, it got added to your 1500+ other message sitting in your 
@postgresql.org mailbox :)  Your oldest being Jun 4th, 2003 :)

You might want to go in and create a forward on that account .. 
http://webmail.postgresql.org, login tgl, pass should be teh same as your 
shell passwd, but if it doesn't work, I can reset that ... go under 
Mail->Filters and set a Forward onto the account to wherever you wish ...

----

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:52:16 -0500 (EST)

> Bruce, but that was awhile ago.)

It does work for me now, and probably for you too.  :-)

All email to @postgresql.org addresses go into this email system:

	http://webmail.postgresql.org/imp/login.php

I used to have a .forward file in my shell home directory so all email
went to my [email-masked] address, but when I started getting a
lot of spam from [email-masked], I removed the .forward file, so
I was unsure where my email was going.  When Josh Berkus wanted to use
the [email-masked] address for press contacts, I had to get it
working again.  I logged into that web account and had +99% spams. 
Since Marc has added procmail spam tags, I have now re-added my .forward
file, and use the procmail tags Marc adds to help my system learn about
spam before discarding the email.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  [email-masked]               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:31:27 -0500

> @postgresql.org mailbox :)  Your oldest being Jun 4th, 2003 :)

Cleaned out ... egad, what a lot of spam :-(

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:37:14 -0400 (AST)

> Cleaned out ... egad, what a lot of spam :-(

Almost 3 years worth ... not bad, actually ... 500 per year, less then 2 
per day ... :)

----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:50:03 -0500

> Almost 3 years worth ... not bad, actually ... 500 per year, less then 2 

Yeah ... the truly depressing thought is what an un-filtered mailbox
must look like these days :-(

I'm about ready to engage in vigilante action against spammers, myself.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:15:16 -0400 (AST)

> I'm about ready to engage in vigilante action against spammers, myself.

Do tell?

---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) 
Email: [email-masked] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:46:29 -0600

> must look like these days :-(

For Nov. '05, 6645 emails scored at 5 or higher in SpamAssassin, out of
20944 total. That compares with about 2800 emails to -hackers and
-general.

For Dec. '05, 6723 spams out of 20186 (~2500 -hackers and -general).

That's relying soley on SpamAssassin to flag spams, btw. Luckily on only
gat about 10 spams a day leaking through, although I do send anything
scoring >= 3 and < 5 to a 'probabably spam' folder, which helps quite a
bit (I don't really consider those as 'leaking through').
 
> I'm about ready to engage in vigilante action against spammers, myself.

Need any help moving bodies? ;)
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461