Subject: Where to put the new donations page?

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 10:54:52 -0800

Folks,

Real Soon Now we're going to want to put up an new donations page which 
funnels funds to the various PostgreSQL non-profits (SPI, SPI-Europe, 
PostgreSQL.fr, JPUG).  Obviously, it would be better to make this part of the 
home page ... www.postgresql.org/Donations or suchlike.

Questions:
	1) Where do we put information about the Fundraising Committee?  This ought 
to be public, but it would extend the Donations page into multiple pages.  Is 
that OK?
	2) Do major (> $1000) financial sponsors get to be Sponsors at 
www.postgresql.org/about/Sponsors, or do we put them somewhere else?  (we'll 
probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).

I also need to find out whether we might have to put the PostgreSQL fund stuff 
on a separate web page; there are some legal restrictions on what a 501(c)3 
can share a web page with.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 09:45:23 -0600

> probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).

Since I haven't seen this on -advocacy yet...

The only argument I can think of for seperating large donors from
corporate sponsors is that some folks might have rather different levels
of interest about each one. Having a number of corporations officially
sponsoring the project arguably carries more weight than the same number
of individual believers, even if they do have deep pockets.

It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is quite
a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but the smallest
companies.

But of course, my opinions might be a bit biased here... :)
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

---

From: Darcy Buskermolen <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:20:20 -0800

On Wednesday 22 March 2006 07:45, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> > www.postgresql.org/about/Sponsors, or do we put them somewhere else? 
> > (we'll probably need to have this argument on Advocacy as well).
>

Perhaps a link on the sponsors page that is "individual sponsors" and list 
those people that sponsor a significant amount.  Though saying that I'm not 
sure what qualifies as a significant amount, perhaps as low as 100.00.  And 
when i say Individual sponsosr I'm thinking small companies as well, Because 
as you say large sums are easy for large companies, but not so easy for small 
companies who are using PG as a core part of thier business.  Perhaps 
something simular to the way that PHK listed all those people that sponsored 
him to do fbsd development. 

http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/donations.html
http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/funding.html

-- 
Darcy Buskermolen
Wavefire Technologies Corp.

http://www.wavefire.com
ph: 250.717.0200
fx: 250.763.1759

---

From: elein <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:34:16 -0800

> http://people.freebsd.org/~phk/funding.html

As one of the small businesses that has contributed and plans to contribute
more (the postgres pin business :)  I would appreciate my small contribution
recognized.  It is actually a fair amount of work and in very small businesses
like mine both money and bandwidth is at a premium.

I don't like the separation of big'uns and little'uns.  We all do what we
can.

--elein

--------------------------------------------------------------
[email-masked]        Varlena, LLC        www.varlena.com
(510)655-2584(o)                             (510)543-6079(c)

          PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training   

PostgreSQL General Bits   http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.

> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:45:18 -0800

Jim,

Well, this is my general idea.  We'd divide the sponsors page into:

Code Contributors
	current developer sponsors here

Hosting Sponsors
	hub, ehpg, cmd, etc.

Financial Sponsors
	Major Sponsors
		$10,000+ annual corporate gifts
	Sponsors
		other corporate gifts, $1000-$10,000
		plus in-kind support
	Individuals (link to page)

However, the "ad-hoc fundraising group" has yet to discuss actual donor 
levels.  Plus, "Financial Sponsors" *must* include donors to JPUG, 
PostgresqlFR and FFIV Germany as well as PostgreSQL at SPI.

I've thought about some relativist approaches but they don't really seem 
appropriate for a donor credits page -- all they would do is result in the 
big companies giving less, which is not what we want.

Oh, one more note:  I'd like to phase out the banner ads by using sponsor 
listings instead.  No other major OSS project I know of uses banners ads 
on their site; it's time to shut them down.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Chris Browne <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 15:07:23 -0500

[email-masked] ("Jim C. Nasby") writes:
> It also might not make sense from a financial perspective. $1k is
> quite a lot for most individuals, but it's a tiny sum for all but
> the smallest companies.

I suspect it's a more significant thing, in fact, if a project
attracts contributions from 50 individuals that add to $1000 (that's a
mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.

I'd expect getting 50 people to take the (pretty nominal) action to be
more difficult than to get one person to sign off on $10K.

If a project needs $10K, the latter is obviously necessary;
demonstrating the "grass roots support" of the first $1K would be
quite compelling to the folks with bigger purse strings...
-- 
output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/internet.html
Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

---

From: "Rajesh Sharma" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 08:33:29 +0400

How about even having, sort of "Ambassadors" of Postgresql for specific
country/region/state/city.
Actively participating people/person to whom locallly others can contact,
ofcourse the pug prevails.

--Rajesh.

On 3/22/06, Josh Berkus <[email-masked]> wrote:
> TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
>

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:14:40 -0600

> mere $20 apiece) than if it attracts $10K from a corporate donor.

I don't know about that; people tend to get a 'warm-fuzzy' when they
find out that major corporations are using/promoting/contributing to
PostgreSQL.
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:37:32 -0800

> find out that major corporations are using/promoting/contributing to

My experience is that in order to get "Major Sponsors" they have to be 
listed as such. Companies don't give to OSS projects for the heck of it.
They want something in return.

That being said, there is a ton of "donations" that happen that make 
people major sponsors.

Every member of core is a major sponsor.

Red Hat is a major sponsor because they pay Tom, but Tom is a major
sponsor because I know he spends well more then 40 hours a week on this 
project.

As sponsors page that will delineate between size of monetary 
contribution is going to cause problems with those who donate a great
deal of in-kind contributions.

Elein is a perfect example. If she goes to 3 shows how much is that 
worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....

Frankly I would say:

Two pages, one for businesses, on for individuals. To qualify to be
on the page you have to donate more then "X" in-kind + dollars.

The pages are alphabetical, no graphics.

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Mike Ellsworth <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:16:14 -0500

>> ..........
Without comment or opinion on the eventual approach, "cut-off $" or 
monetization of non-cash contributions, a person/entity should receive a 
brief "Thank you!" directly from PostgreSQL.org  -  regardless of the 
size of the $$ contribution.  As it is now, if you go the SPI route, you 
get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.  

Not everyone needs or wants to have their names in lights, but I am 
reasonably sure that anyone donating via SPI would at least like to know 
that PG received the funds and that the contribution, however minute, 
was received and appreciated.  There may be a timing issue on the funds 
transfer, but somehow/someway/sometime, a Thank You needs to be triggered.  

$10 may be peanuts to some, but not everywhere in the world.  Elephants 
like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 10:19:53 -0800

> like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

Absolutely!

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 23 Mar 2006 13:34:46 -0500

> worth? My day rate is 2500.00 (if I am out of towm) plus expenses....

ISTM if you are distributing flyers/business cards with your name over
them, your already getting a return on your time investment at a given
show, especially in cases like oscon where the booth is provided to the
project for free.  If you are paying to get postgresql entry into the
conference (like was recently discussed in the dubai thread) then that
might be a little different, but I think we need some kind of
delineation between companies who pay developer salaries, people who
staff booths where they get to advertise their wares, and people who
send in a check (Well, that assumes the goal isn't just to compile the
largest list of sponsors we can, but actually give real recognition to
those who continually sponsor this project and the folks who might give
a one time donation).  

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:16:49 -0800

Mike,

> get a confirm from SPI but NADA from PG.

This is a technical problem that hopefully we'll have worked out soon.  I'm 
supposed to get a list of donors on a monthly or bi-monthly basis so that 
I can send them thank-you e-mails.  Unfortunately, there seems to be some 
problem with this process that we haven't figured out yet.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: elein <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 11:20:37 -0800

> those who continually sponsor this project and the folks who might give

If all I did was to staff a booth at conferences and hand out cards, then you 
might have a point.  However, this is not the case for me.  I created 
PostgreSQL flyers (not varlena flyers).  I organize the pin effort. I help organize 
the booth.  I work with the oscon committee. I give talks at conferences and user
groups which require preparation.  I write a semi-weekly column with a huge archive.  
I do get a little marketing visibility in there but believe me I work and pay for 
it dearly since most of what I do goes to educating the postgresql user community for free.

This is just me.  Certain other people also do not get paid for their work
and time above and beyond self-interest.  We consider it our contribution
back to the community.  This, I believe, is how and why open source works.

Why does it bother you to acknowledge work and time of others?  (That is a
rhetorical question.)

--elein

---

From: Mike Ellsworth <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:41:59 -0500

This will be a good.  Black holes can provoke a sense of 
wonderment, followed immediately by a facial tic.  :-)

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 15:48:38 -0400

> wonderment, followed immediately by a facial tic.  :-)

Hmm ... that seems radically different from my experience observing the
interactions between black holes and spaceships ... in movies, that is.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:23:19 -0800

Folks,

This is why I said "It's not fully discussed ..." because it's not.   
In-kind gifts are particularly a big issue that will take some working 
out.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:35:33 -0500

On Thursday 23 March 2006 14:20, elein wrote:
> If all I did was to staff a booth at conferences and hand out cards, then
> you might have a point.  However, this is not the case for me. 

I guess I have to point out that my above statement was not directed at you 
specifically?  We get a lot of companies that staff booths at a lot of shows. 
Honestly I am glad that they do, from what I have seen they represent the 
community in a fantastic way.  But do we have to turn a blind eye to the fact 
that some of these people are their for commercial purposes, and they they 
are served well by that exposure, and that they are not getting raw deal out 
of it?  

> I created  
> PostgreSQL flyers (not varlena flyers).  I organize the pin effort. I help
> organize the booth.  I work with the oscon committee. I give talks at
> conferences and user groups which require preparation.  I write a
> semi-weekly column with a huge archive. I do get a little marketing
> visibility in there but believe me I work and pay for it dearly since most
> of what I do goes to educating the postgresql user community for free.
>

You "pay for it dearly"?  If your activities are hurting your business that 
much, by all means cut back on them.   

> back to the community.  This, I believe, is how and why open source works.

Berkus has a nice way of laying out how all open source contributions are done 
in some form of self-interests.  I tend to agree with it. Some people do open 
source as a desire to say thanks, some do it as a way to promote certain 
ideals, and some do it expecting to get paid for it.  I tend to care more 
just that people contribute than as to exactly why they contribute, but I 
don't feel the need to obfuscate these motivations either; if we want to 
recognize specific types of contributions (like cash donations) then let's do 
that. If people feel that this would discriminate too much against people who 
have not contributed in that specific way, then let's make a "this person has 
probably had some type of involvement with the postgresql project, or at 
least has struggled through pronouncing the project name" list and we can 
start signing people up for that I'm good either way... as Justin used to 
post in his sig:

"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

But let's be honest with ourselves about what we're doing.

> Why does it bother you to acknowledge work and time of others?  (That is a

Really? It sounds more like an insult. And an ironic one at that given I have 
been the primary driver of getting people added to the recognized developers 
and corporations lists for the last couple of releases.  

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:52:09 -0800

Devrim,

> Is this Justin Clift? Anyone knows whether he is around or not?
>
> He is one who pushed me into -www team 5 years ago...

He's still around.  He and I swapped places; he became heavily involved in 
OpenOffice.org and I dropped OOo for Postgres.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:52:29 +0200

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 17:35 -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> as Justin used to post in his sig:

He is one who pushed me into -www team 5 years ago...
-- 
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PL/php, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:59:34 +0200

Hi,

> OpenOffice.org and I dropped OOo for Postgres.

Thanks for the update. Let me e-mail him (if his previous e-mail still
works...)

Regards,

---

From: Jim Nasby <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:33:45 +0100

On Mar 23, 2006, at 7:16 PM, Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> $10 may be peanuts to some, but not everywhere in the world.   
> Elephants like peanuts. Eat 'em right up.

Heh, that reminds me, for those that haven't seen it, we have a new  
advertising campaign/motto/whateveryouwanttocallit; "Massive database  
power... for peanuts!"
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461