Subject: Further SPI

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:54:43 -0700

Hello,

Let me first say that I know the intent of the SPI is good and I did 
vote for the transition to it. However as I see the implementation of
its abilities I am embarrased.

Here is the current way to donate via SPI to PostgreSQL online:

1. Via web browser use the following path: http://www.spi-inc.org/

2. Look all around the page to see blue on blue hyper link called 
"Donations" on the right hand page.

3. Click "Donations" : http://www.spi-inc.org/donations

4. Click "Donations of Money" which is an internal page ref that drops
down the page to "Donations of Money" informational paragraphs.

Read through paragraphs, see that I can "mail a check" (we just lost 90%
of our ability to receive a donation).

Further reading shows that we can click on a "Donate Now through the 
network of good"... Who the heck is this? I thought I was donating 
through SPI?

5. Click "Donate Now through the network of good" even though I don't 
know them, the page does say.... "If I have a credit card from a 
financial instituion in the United States". So I am assuming they are a 
broker of some sort.

6. Once I click on the "Donate Now through the network of good" I am 
taken to: "Donate Now through the network of good". Which still says not 
one thing about PostgreSQL but does give me a nice link about donating 
to SPI and a nice big button that says "Donate Now".

7. Click "Donate Now", I am taken to a page that allows me to donate to
SPI but says nothing about PostgreSQL.

I am able to "Designate" or "Dedication or Gift". Which means I could
write in the name PostgreSQL and in theory PostgreSQL would see the 
donation.

What if I type in Postgres, Pg, PSQL, or PGSQL?
What if I mispel it? You can't make "assumptions" with people's money.
What if I say, PostgreSQL + Debian?

At this point I am going to close my browser and forget about it. Most 
others will close their browser and forget about it at number 4. or 5 if 
they even get that far.

Donated via SPI should be one button/link and one button link only. You 
should have two options:

1. Send a check/money order
2. Via Credit Card (US card holders only)

The first link should take them to a page that describes in no more than
5 or 6 sentences how to send a check.

The second link should take them to a page that says:

Donate to PostgreSQL Project
Enter Amount
Enter Credit Card Information / Create account.

Anymore then that and we have cut our own wrists with donations.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 

             === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
       Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
       Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
                      http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: "Jonah H. Harris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 14:33:27 -0400

I have to agree with Josh, this is pretty lame.  It would be a real
PITA for somone who hadn't done it before.  Isn't there anyone else we
can go through for this?

On 4/8/06, Joshua D. Drake <[email-masked]> wrote:
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
>                http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
>

--
Jonah H. Harris, Database Internals Architect
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732.331.1324

---

From: "Jonah H. Harris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 14:40:01 -0400

What about using Sourceforge for the donation process?  It's not
great, but it's certainly better than SPI.

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 12:59:55 -0700

Josh,

> its abilities I am embarrased.

Chill the heck out.   It's not ready yet, why do you think we haven't 
advertised it?   

We're currently working on accepting international credit card donations over 
the web.  Have some darned patience.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:21:25 -0700

> great, but it's certainly better than SPI.

I am not suggesting we move away from SPI. What I am suggesting is that 
we help them improve their process. SPI is a good thing to back but they 
need help.

The problem with sourceforge is it is NOT a non-profit.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
--

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:23:11 -0700

> Chill the heck out.   It's not ready yet, why do you think we haven't 

There is nothing to chill out about. I am making an observation about 
the current state of things and offered feedback.

> the web.  Have some darned patience.

I am not concerned about international credit cards, and that won't 
really help the situation.

My entire post was about process flow. It had nothing to do with whether 
SPI was bad or good.

Joshua D. Drake

--

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 14:45:11 -0700

Josh,

> the current state of things and offered feedback.

Ok, both the Fundraising Group and SPI are aware that it sucks and are taking 
steps to change it.  We're just not done yet.   Within the next month or so, 
expect to see:

1) Replacing the Donations page on www.postgresql.org with all of the relevant 
links and instructions;

2) Replacing web donation via Network for Good with the easier-to-use Click 
and Pledge;

3) A complete replacement of the SPI web site with one based on Plone or 
Drupal.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Jonah H. Harris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 18:02:30 -0400

On 4/8/06, Josh Berkus <[email-masked]> wrote:
> expect to see...

That's good news because the current state of things is pretty bad.

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 22:43:35 -0000

> What if I say, PostgreSQL + Debian?

I think the first two would be fine. The donations are are entered by hand by
the SPI treasurer, and they can certainly contact the person leaving the donation
if there is any question. However, our name is so unique that it is unlikekly
to be mistaken for anything else! :) I'm not sure how they would handle that last
case, but presumably, the money would be split 50/50 between the PG and Deb bucket.

What we really need to do is accept PayPal. Yes, people have issues with
them, they are Evil Incarnate, etc., but they are also the standard way of
moving money around via the Internet, and I can only imagine that we are
losing out of potential $$ by not including them. Using PayPal would also
get around the current problem, but allowing a "single click to pay by
credit card" option.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200604081839
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 15:54:43 -0700

Greg,

> get around the current problem, but allowing a "single click to pay by

We cannot used Paypal with the SPI bank account.  Paypal was previously used 
in an attempt to commit fraud against SPI, so it will not be accepted under 
any circumstances.  It's not a matter of political dislike; the negligence of 
Paypal staff can cost us hundreds or thousands of dollars and even 
potentially embroil us in a donor suit.

Also, I'm very dubious about the claim that people will be willing to donate 
via Paypal who won't donate via Click-and-Pledge.   At most, I imagine that 
we'd miss out on a couple hundred a year worth of donations from people who 
can't be bothered to fill out a web form.  That's simply not worth the risk.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Jonah H. Harris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:19:12 -0400

On 4/8/06, Josh Berkus <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Paypal was previously used in an attempt to commit
> fraud against SPI, so it will not be accepted under
> any circumstances.

I must've missed that.  I have issues with PayPal at times too, but
overall they have been pretty good.  Sucks that we can't use them.

> I'm very dubious about the claim that people will be willing to donate
> via Paypal who won't donate via Click-and-Pledge.

I pretty much agree.  In some cases it's a case of convenience; they
already have PayPal account so it's easier for them.  However, if
someone really wants to donate, they're going to fill out a simple
form... it's not that difficult.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:41:20 -0700

> form... it's not that difficult.

It is not uncommon to do click and pledge type purchases. Also keep in 
mind that the donate for good allows account setup, so if the person is 
willing to setup an account then they will only have to do so once.

Joshua D. Drake

> TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
>        subscribe-nomail command to [email-masked] so that your
>        message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
> 

--

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:44:27 -0700

Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> if there is any question.

Do you really think that SPI has the resources for such a thing?

 > However, our name is so unique that it is unlikekly
> to be mistaken for anything else! :) 

It is not the point that it may be mistaken...

You know PgSQL == PostgreSQL
I know PgSQL == PostgreSQL
IRS does NOT know PgSQL == PostgreSQL

It would be a complete headache if they were ever audited not to mention 
  if someone wanted to be an ass (and there are plenty on the Internet) 
they could say that they didn't know that PgSQL == PostgreSQL and thus 
SPI was committing fraud.

I'm not sure how they would handle that last
> case, but presumably, the money would be split 50/50 between the PG and Deb bucket.

Except that legally, they can't. There has to be a designation of the 
percentages, so we would be back at square one with someone trying to 
contact the donator.

> them, they are Evil Incarnate, etc., but they are also the standard way of

Yes they are Evil Incarnate :) but as Josh says... it is not an option 
and really it shouldn't be. We need to be promoting good business 
practices. Paypal does not fall under that category.

Joshua D. Drake
--

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:06:56 -0700

Josh,

> willing to setup an account then they will only have to do so once.

"Network for Good" is the name of a 501(c)3 donate online service. 
http://www.networkforgood.org/

"Click and Pledge" is the name another online donation service: 
http://www.clickandpledge.org/

SPI will be subscribing to Click & Pledge and phasing out Network For Good, 
because:
C&P allows customization of the donation pages;
C&P doesn't require setting up an account, so donating is easier;
C&P has better reporting of donations;
C&P has support for event-specific fundraising and recurring donations;
C&P accepts credit cards from most large banks, not just US banks.

BTW, the SPI treasurer did research these services before committing to Click 
& Pledge.

> IRS does NOT know PgSQL == PostgreSQL

*sigh*, Josh, please stick to stuff you actually know.  As the former 
Development Officer of the San Francisco Opera education program, I can tell 
you that the above is not significant.   The only issue with bad designations 
is the delay before the gift gets moved between accounts.

> percentages, so we would be back at square one with someone trying to

Yes ... in that case SPI would contact the donor and get written (via e-mail) 
notice of how the gift was supposed to be designated.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:16:34 -0700

> is the delay before the gift gets moved between accounts.

*sigh* as someone who is recently audited I can tell you it does matter. 
I didn't say it was a show stopper. I was bringing it up as a point that 
needs to be resolved.

You seem to think because I bring up a potential issue I am saying that 
"THE SKY IS FALLING". Let's leave the theatrics at the door. I am just 
having a conversation about things I have run into and sharing my real 
life experience.

FYI, I got out of the audit with only 690.00 to pay out :). I can not 
stress the need for a real good CPA enough :)

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 00:17:54 -0300 (ADT)

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Also, I'm very dubious about the claim that people will be willing to 
> donate via Paypal who won't donate via Click-and-Pledge.  At most, I 
> imagine that we'd miss out on a couple hundred a year worth of donations 
> from people who can't be bothered to fill out a web form.  That's simply 
> not worth the risk.

Just as an aside here ... I'm one of those that 'shops online' using my 
Paypal account alot ... main reason: I don't have a credit card ... and 
sending out a cheque is a royal pain ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 00:20:42 -0300 (ADT)

> is the delay before the gift gets moved between accounts.

Stupid question here, but as far as the IRS is concerned, is the donation 
being made to PostgreSQL, or is it being made to SPI?  Since its SPI that 
has the 501(c), I *thought* it would be them ... but, thank god, I never 
have to deal with the IRS, so its not a big concern for me :)

----

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 09:24:44 -0700

> Stupid question here, but as far as the IRS is concerned, is the 
> donation being made to PostgreSQL, or is it being made to SPI?

It would be to SPI. I actually don't even know if SPI is in the US 
(although I am assuming it is). I was just making a point that the 
records have to be correct otherwise there could be some admistrative 
problems.

   Since
> its SPI that has the 501(c), I *thought* it would be them ... but, thank 
> god, I never have to deal with the IRS, so its not a big concern for me :)

Meh, the IRS is no big deal as long as you actual pay attention and do 
the paperwork. A lot of people are intimidated (and I can see why) by 
the IRS but they don't need to be.

The only people that are normally in trouble by the IRS are those who 
refuse to just follow the rules.

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:58:10 -0700

Marc, Josh,

> records have to be correct otherwise there could be some admistrative

That's correct.

The basic approach is that you're donating to the SPI, making a "designated 
gift" to either PostgreSQL or the PostgreSQL Anniversary.  If the designation 
is unclear (i.e. to "PG") then it would likely be necessary to contact the 
giver by e-mail to confirm the destination.   As long as both the 
organization and the donor are clear on the designation at the time of 
giving, it's not a problem for the IRS.

Of course, when we get our Click&Pledge account working, we won't have to rely 
on people typing it into a blank.  Which will be good.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Jim Nasby <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:06:05 -0500

> potentially embroil us in a donor suit.

Dumb question: why does stuff have to go into an SPI account? Is  
there some reason why PGDG can't open an account somewhere? Sure, it  
won't be tax deductable, but I bet a lot of folks won't care.

> can't be bothered to fill out a web form.  That's simply not worth  

So why miss out on the "couple hundred a year"?
--
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:32:50 -0400 (EDT)

You must admit, these steps are pretty funny, and "network of good"
sounds like a kids cartoon show:

  "The Network of Good and the Justice League team up to save the world!"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
  Bruce Momjian   http://candle.pha.pa.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:40:00 -0700

All:

New donation form up:
https://128bit.clickandpledge.com/default.aspx?ID=12235&cid=US&a=

... so let's not hear more bitching about how hard it is to use.  ;-p

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Jonah H. Harris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:54:06 -0400

>   "The Network of Good and the Justice League team up to save the world!"

Tune in next week and watch as the Flash speeds donations across time
and space to the PostgreSQL Project.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 23:44:47 -0400 (EDT)

> ... so let's not hear more bitching about how hard it is to use.  ;-p

Aw, that's too easy.  They should have to work harder to give us money.

(Reminds me of guys who want my advice about open source, but want me to
sign an NDA first.  "Uh, you asked me for help, remember?")

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:34:51 -0700

> > ... so let's not hear more bitching about how hard it is to use.  ;-p

Ugly, but much, much better :)

> sign an NDA first.  "Uh, you asked me for help, remember?")

Or those that want you to indemnify them against Open Source projects ;)

Joshua D. Drake

--

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:07:22 -0700

Folks,

> > > https://128bit.clickandpledge.com/default.aspx?ID=12235&cid=US&a=

So, can someone actually try making a contribution via Click & Pledge and 
share with me the e-mail it gives you?   I'd do it myself, but I already 
put $1500 of my personal money into the conference.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:35:17 -0700

> put $1500 of my personal money into the conference.

Done... email forthcoming directly to you.

Joshua D. Drake

--

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From: "Guido Barosio" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:38:32 +0100

sent another one minutes ago.

g.-

On 4/17/06, Joshua D. Drake <[email-masked]> wrote:
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

--
Guido Barosio
-----------------------
http://www.globant.com
[email-masked]