Subject: Toward A Positive Marketing Approach.

From: Michael Dean <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:32:51 -0700

Greetings Guys

As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to 
marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed!  So far I have 
read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a few 
remarks IMHO:

1.  We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as 
social bugs.  Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the 
popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql.  Give them free links, 
somehow give them free expertise, give them focused help so that 
offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster as in 
the past.  Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql. WHY?, if 
pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???

3. Reward existing FOSS projects that make sensible provision to 
accomodate postgresql in preference to other more "commercial" db's.  
Free links, mention in newsletter, listing on websites, whatever it 
takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.  
A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration project, very 
professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.

4. Stop being too cheap.  Money Talks!  Offer to PAY premiums to major 
OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough.  Like Compierre, 
like Drupal.  Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money 
(guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite programs totally in 
postgresql, even if forks were necessary?  How many others DON'T 
contribute because they fail to see a coherent, systematic program of 
promotion, just more of the same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year 
after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there. 

5. Make it easy, NOT hard, to come to postgresql.  Provide a 
decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.

6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications around 
the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to base their 
software on.  A good example, the educators who wrote LAMS, adopted a 
sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.

7. Provide marketing based brochure models licensed in the creative 
commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg features.  
Something decision makers in companies can sink their teeth into, not 
the programmers who work for them that do what they are told.  These 
must speak to TCO and ROI over time.

8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath.  It serves them, not pg.  
After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so 
specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about 
pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!

I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough to 
influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. 

Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged at 
this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again, I like 
to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.

Michael

---

From: elein <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:46:23 -0700

> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

Note that the push for postgresql at any given site is likely to be pushed 
up from the technical staff.  Find us some marketing pros who understand
the postgresql project and we'll let them have at it.

> pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???

Links are free.  Support for PostgreSQL is free via the mailing lists
and IRC.  This free support is better than most call centers.

> professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs some promotional help.

This is already happening on the postgresql.org page and in the
PostgreSQL Weekly News.

> after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there. 

You can already do this.  Kick in money for a developer or consultant
and the program in question can be converted.   

> decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor neutral.

Ahh, Stonebraker's 4x4 matrix.

> sensible database approach, but then went solely with mysql.

This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.

> must speak to TCO and ROI over time.

Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have.  People will be happy
to use them.

> pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!

I actually agree with this.

> to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.

Overall, I suggest you come to understand more about how open source
projects, and postgresql, specifically work.  Discuss with others 
*specific* items and how they can be implemented.  Action always speaks
more loudly than words.  For the most part Josh Berkus has been leading 
the marketing effort.  It would behoove you to discuss how you can help 
him in that effort.

Carry on!

Elein 
--------------------------------------------------------------
          PostgreSQL Consulting, Support & Training   
--------------------------------------------------------------
[email-masked]        Varlena, LLC        www.varlena.com

          office: (510)655-2584    Yahoo: AElein
            cell: (510)543-6079      AIM: varlenallc
             fax: (510)217-7008    Skype: varlenallc

PostgreSQL General Bits   http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have always depended on the [QA] of strangers.

---

From: elein <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:47:52 -0700

Oh, and please don't cross post unless it is actually pertinent.  
The place to discuss this type of thing is on pgsql-advocacy.
I apologize for crossposting my response.

--elein

On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote:
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
> 
>               http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
>

---

From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:45:45 -0700

On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 01:32:51PM -0700, Michael Dean wrote:
> marketing, I think a refreshed course for pg is needed!  So far I
> have read all 5000 or so of this month's emails and want to make a
> few remarks IMHO:

I'm removing -hackers and leaving in -advocacy, where this discussion
belongs.

> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

I disagree with the premise of this assertion.  The popularity of
PostgreSQL, far from "paling," is increasing by leaps and bounds all
over the world.  It's increasing faster than any other DBMS in quite a
few places.

> 2. Reward ISP's who newly support postgresql.  Give them free links,

Partly done.  As we find hosting providers who support PostgreSQL,
they go on the http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_hosting
pages.  Perhaps this should take a little less digging from the front
page than it currently does, as it is not totally obvious to the
end-user of the web site that they should follow the Support link to
find out about hosting.

> offering postgresql to their customers will not end up in disaster
> as in the past.

I'll stack <irc://irc.freenode.net/postgresql> and the mailing lists
against any support system, free or otherwise.

> Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support postgrsql.  WHY?, if pg is
> SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???

It's perfectly explicable in terms of first-mover advantage and
marketing muscle.  While the first-mover advantage can fade over time,
PostgreSQL is likely to dominate in marketing muscle any time soon.
There are other considerations, too.  How many ISPs support Oracle or
DB2?  That's the space we're in.

> takes to start pulling other open source communities behind postgresql.  

We already do this!

> 4. Stop being too cheap.  Money Talks!

What money?

> Offer to PAY premiums to major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do
> it well enough.  Like Compierre, like Drupal.  Ask me if i would
> contribute $1000 to pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY
> chosen favorite programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were
> necessary?  How many others DON'T contribute because they fail to
> see a coherent, systematic program of promotion, just more of the
> same, free linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity
> to the commercial realities out there. 

We've *just* gotten an organization together where people can
contribute money after years of effort forming a 501(c)3 came to
nothing.  Please to have a little patience.  Better still, join up.

> decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor

Why hasn't Oracle provided such a thing?  MySQL?  I admire the
sentiment, but it seems unlikely to me that there is ever going to be
a "vendor neutral" decision tree because every vendor considers
different things "absolutely crucial, must play an early part in the
selection process."

> 6. Offer to assist nerwly popular university based applications
> around the world, such that they authomatically choose postgresql to
> base their software on.  A good example, the educators who wrote
> LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely
> with mysql.

With what resources?

> commons which is something more than a mere enumeration of pg

Already done.  If you don't like the current ones, are you willing to
(commit resources to) edit the current ones and/or write new ones?

> After all, mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be
> so specifically, vociferously and universally concerned! talk only
> about pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single
> anyone out!

Great idea.

> I would be willing to bet that a bounty of just $50 would be enough
> to influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support. 

> Anyway, this is from the heart, I know many persons will be outraged
> at this upstart coming out and saying these things, but then again,
> I like to live dangerously and I am not required to attend Java100.

As every volunteer project does, we've got plenty of people who are
full of suggestions.  If you're one of that rare few who is also
willing to roll up your sleeves and work, you're a welcome addition to
the community :)

Cheers,
D
-- 
David Fetter <[email-masked]> http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 415 235 3778        AIM: dfetter666
                              Skype: davidfetter

Remember to vote!

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:37:35 -0400

On Thursday 18 May 2006 16:32, Michael Dean wrote:
<snip>
> after year, no affinity to the commercial realities out there.
<snip>
> influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.

You would be wrong.  Several OSS projects have been approached about offering 
postgresql support, and while they haven't been offered $50, they have been 
offered the actual code they would need to implement postgresql support and 
have turned it down. 

As you said, you're new, but I have been promoting the practice of "advocacy 
development" for some time now, and have personally been involved both 
publicly and privately in attempting to bring postgresql support (either 
newly or in a more sustained/complete fasion) to a number of different 
packages including things like php-nuke, phpbb, drupal, s9y, mediawiki, 
ajaxmytop, and others, and there have been little to no financial support for  
those efforts (either for me or other people) so far. 

I won't argue that some of your points are valid, and if you would like to 
help with our marketing efforts there are certainly some ways you could help, 
so I hope you stick around, but what I would really like to see in your next 
email is a list of items you would like to work on personally to help our 
marketing efforts.  Need an example? How about writing some case studies? 
Targeting C-level execs and disussing ROI and TCO... we could use that. 
Remember, ask not what PostgreSQL can do for you, ask what you can do for 
PostgreSQL :-)  

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Greg Stark <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 May 2006 01:28:02 -0400

Michael Dean <[email-masked]> writes:

> Greetings Guys
> 
> As a newbie person moving away from my technical background to marketing, I
> think a refreshed course for pg is needed!  So far I have read all 5000 or so
> of this month's emails and want to make a few remarks IMHO:
> 
> 1.  We should treat all marketing efforts by hackers/programmers as social
> bugs.  Get some marketing pros (debuggers) in on this, or the popularity of
> postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

And this is a problem why? You seem to have mistaken this as some sort of
commercial project that needs to return a profit or some sort of evangelical
movement. It is neither. The contributors get the benefit of a good database
which for whatever varied reasons satisfies their needs.

> 8. Stop mentioning mysql in every breath.  It serves them, not pg.  After all,
> mysql must be better, or why would these folks at pg be so specifically,
> vociferously and universally concerned! talk only about pg, make comparisons to
> the whole field of db's, don't single anyone out!

I do agree with this point (though not the rationale). 

Bashing mysql (or Oracle) doesn't really accomplish much to improve Postgres
or help Postgres users. There is some room for "let's avoid the mistakes
others have made" or "learn from what others have done well", but there's an
awful lot of contentless "mysql sucks" threads too. Personally I have "mysql"
killfiled in these lists.

-- 
greg

---

From: Ned Lilly <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:14:30 -0400

Michael Dean wrote:

> like Drupal.  

Compiere has a religious preference for Oracle, money doesn't talk in this instance.

As for Drupal, OpenMFG will be posting its Postgres port support (as well as for Drupal integration with the Mantis bugtracker).  We use both for our community site, www.openmfg.org. 

Regards,
Ned

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:59:49 -0500

Dropping -hackers.

> and IRC.  This free support is better than most call centers.

Maybe ISP's aren't getting the word?

Actually, I suspect the real issue is that there isn't enough demand.
Every OSS project out there uses MySQL, so that's what people want, so
it's what ISPs provide. Since it's so hard to get ISPs that support
PostgreSQL, more people develop using MySQL, driving demand, etc. I talk
to probably 1 person a month that would love to develop some application
using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP)
doesn't support it.

I think there's probably a lot to be gained by providing incentive for
ISPs to support PostgreSQL. Perhaps that incentive is just publicizing
the outstanding free support that's available. Or maybe if we get more
OSS projects supporting PostgreSQL, thereby increasing demand...

> and the program in question can be converted.   

Perhaps we should look at making a more concentrated push in this
area... both from a marketing standpoint ("Hey! OSS Projects! We'll help
you add PostgreSQL support!") as well as collecting donations that are
targeted towards this effort.

> This is being done with the Google Summer of Code.

But it should be a year-round effort...

> Feel free to rewrite any brochures we have.  People will be happy
 
I can get some time from Pervasive's marketing folks to help with stuff
like this if someone has specific ideas for collateral.
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

---

From: Joshua Kramer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:29:43 -0400 (EDT)

> using PostgreSQL but can't because their ISP (or their customer's ISP)

Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support 
Postgres?  That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to 
ISP's who support it...

http://www.jtl.net is one (though I have no experience with them).

It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting 
environment...

Cheers,
-Josh

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:36:21 -0300 (ADT)

On Fri, 19 May 2006, Joshua Kramer wrote:

> Here's another idea: why not find and promote webhosts who support Postgres? 
> That might be another tool we can use, to direct people to ISP's who support 
> it...
>
> It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting environment...

http://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_hosting

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:59:43 -0700

> It's not as if it's hard to support Postgres in a web hosting 

We have a whole list on the website of postgresql hosting providers.

Joshua D. Drake

> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
> 
>               http://archives.postgresql.org
> 

-- 

    === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
    Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
              http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: Chris Browne <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:06:50 +0000

> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

Ah, but marketing efforts by "marketing pros" *to hackers/programmers*
tend to also be regarded as "social bugs."

This is a case where different sorts of marketing work when dealing
with different sets of people.

> as in the past.  Less than 4% of ISP's worldwide support
> postgrsql. WHY?, if pg is SO GOOD, and SO MUCH BETTER???

We already offer "free links" and "free expertise."  I don't see there
being terribly much to be done in terms of reaching out to ISPs.

> takes to start pulling other open source communities behind
> postgresql.  A good example is bitweaver.org, a great integration
> project, very professional, helpful to small businesses, but needs
> some promotional help.

This is being done.

> 4. Stop being too cheap.  Money Talks!  Offer to PAY premiums to
> major OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough.  Like
> Compierre, like Drupal.  Ask me if i would contribute $1000 to
> pg.org if the money (guaranteed) went to get MY chosen favorite
> programs totally in postgresql, even if forks were necessary?  How
> many others DON'T contribute because they fail to see a coherent,
> systematic program of promotion, just more of the same, free
> linuxworld booths and bof's year after year, no affinity to the
> commercial realities out there.

With what money???  This isn't Oracle Corporation, with Billion$ of
marketing dollar$ to $pend.

Compiere is an example of a project that doesn't seem interested in
migrating away from Oracle; they presumably get more support (possibly
even money, too) than we'd be likely to be able to offer.

> decision-tree selection software for ALL databases which is vendor

That's arguably not possible.

A "vendor neutral" decision tree, as far as any given vendor is
concerned, will be one which doesn't point anyone away from their
product.  That's not a decision tree that would point people towards
PostgreSQL...

> pg, make comparisons to the whole field of db's, don't single anyone

That probably is a good idea.

> influence major and minor FOSS projects to give pg major support.

I'd bet against that in a second.

Plenty of people are neither interested in the money nor in the added
effort.

Furthermore, you are missing that there are people that are as biased
towards the GPL as the people biased against it.  There are people who
refuse to use PostgreSQL on the basis that it is licensed under the
BSD license, and you can't push them...
-- 
"cbbrowne","@","cbbrowne.com"
http://cbbrowne.com/info/unix.html
CBS News report on Fort Worth tornado damage:
"Eight major downtown buildings were severely damaged and 1,000 homes
were damaged, with 95 uninhabitable.  Gov. George W. Bush declared
Tarrant County a disaster area.  Federal Emergency Management Agency
workers are expected to arrive sometime next week after required
paperwork is completed."

---

From: Mike Ellsworth <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:42:49 -0400

Somewhere in this thread there was mention of an available brochure(s).

Could someone point me to those materials?

Thanks.

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:18:00 -0700

Michael,

Howdy, glad to see you came back.

> popularity of postgresql will continue to pale in the real world.

Not really in line with PostgreSQL's "personality".   This could work for 
OpenOffice, but not here.  PG is a very engineering-central project and there 
aren't many people who want to change that.

> OSS aps who don't do pg, or don't do it well enough.  Like Compierre,

Actually, what projects who don't have a bias against PostgreSQL mostly need 
is developer time to help them with code.  Drupal already supports Postgres; 
they need DBAs to help them be faster/better on Postgres.   They are in the 
same boat with lots of other projects, so much so that there is more demand 
than there are PG volunteers.

If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with 
someone.

Other projects need even more intensive coding help.  OpenOffice, for example, 
doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.  
That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.

I do think that we could use a list of what other mature OSS projects support 
PostgreSQL reasonably well already.  This is pretty much a data collection 
effort; are you volunteering for it?   We could use it.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Ned Lilly <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:25:56 -0400

I might not have been clear in my earlier post.

OpenMFG, the ERP system, has run on PostgreSQL from day one.  It's the ONLY database we run on.  OpenMFG is not free software, but we have a source code license that accepts and encourages community contributions (of which there have been many).  See www.openmfg.com for details on the product.

We also recently spun up a new community website at www.openmfg.org.  It's powered by the Drupal CMS, which Michael referenced in his original post.  Drupal is one of those projects that has a lot of MySQL-specific yuckiness in it.  Same thing for Mantis, a bug tracker that is infinitely more functional than the built-in bugtracker in Drupal.  So we've done three things for the .org website:

1) improved PostgreSQL support for Drupal
2) improved PostgreSQL support for Mantis
3) integrated Drupal and Mantis with a common PostgreSQL database

Sorry for any confusion.  We'll be releasing our patches at the main Drupal site soon, and there's also a forum on openmfg.org devoted to the changes we made.

Cheers,
Ned

-- 
Ned Lilly
President and CEO
OpenMFG, LLC
119 West York Street
Norfolk, VA 23510
tel. 757.461.3022 x101
email: [email-masked]
www.openmfg.com

Ned Lilly wrote:
> As for Drupal, OpenMFG will be posting its Postgres port support (as 
> well as for Drupal integration with the Mantis bugtracker).  We use both 
> for our community site, www.openmfg.org.
> Regards,
> Ned
>

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:22:33 -0700

> That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not $50.

Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?

J

--

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:23:18 -0400

> doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still too buggy.  

That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.
Does anyone have a handle on what the problems are?  Is it something
that could reasonably be fixed by a Postgres person, or is the real
problem that it'd take a whole lot of both OO-fu and Postgres-fu?
If so, can we find someone with the former nature to collaborate with?

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:03:13 -0500

Dropping -hackers.

> If you have Postgres DBA experience, I'll be happy to hook you up with 

Even better would be if we had someplace where projects looking for help
could go to find volunteers. I think there's a lot of people who use
PostgreSQL and would like to contribute back to the community, but
aren't really able to help from a code standpoint. This would be a great
way for them to get involved.

> effort; are you volunteering for it?   We could use it.

+1

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:14:39 -0400

On Friday 19 May 2006 14:22, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Other projects need even more intensive coding help.  OpenOffice, for
> > example, doesn't offer the Postgres driver by default because it's still
> > too buggy. That would be solvable with money, but $1000 to $2000, not
> > $50.
>

It's not about what OO needs, it's about what PG needs.  Consider this; if 
database M works out of the box...  but database P requires you to go find 
some third party software and download it and install it in order to work... 
you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:58:58 -0700

> you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user adoption?

Well then, why don't we convince the OO people to bundle either ODBC or 
ODBCng with OO.

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:14:15 -0400

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >some third party software and download it and install it in order to 
> >work... you tell me which one is going to have the advantage in new user 
> >adoption?
> 

The ODBC interface is less powerful for OOo than their own SDBC
interface AFAIK (which is why they developed it).  So while it would be
good to have an ODBC driver in there, the SDBC driver will also continue
to be developed.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

---

From: Adrian Klaver <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:20:32 -0700

> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?
FYI  the OO native Postgresql driver is located at-
http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html
The author has a fairly detailed listing of features as well as limitations.

-- 
Adrian Klaver	
[email-masked]

---

From: "Matthew T. O'Connor" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:27:35 -0400

> That seems like something that it'd be worth our while to help fix.

+1 (or +10 if that's not to piggy ;-)

---

From: Mike Ellsworth <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:33:12 -0400

I will donate $1,000, specifically for this driver.

If it requires more ... then ideally someone else should pick up the diff.

I'll send the check today if I get a confirm that the $ will be directed 
specifically at this need.

Thanks,
Mike

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:14:54 -0700

> specifically at this need.

Woooah slow down :) Lets get that submitted through SPI so it is a write 
off. CMD would be willing to kick in 500.00 as well.

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:45:38 -0700

Guys,

> off. CMD would be willing to kick in 500.00 as well.

I will contact the developer to see if money will make a difference.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:52:54 -0700

Folks,

Ok, sent an e-mail to Joerg.

In addition to time/money for debugging and feature completion from an OOo 
developer, the other thing that's needed is members of our community to 
join the DBA project and participate actively in debugging. 
http://dba.openoffice.org/index.html
http://dba.openoffice.org/drivers/postgresql/index.html  

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: Tino Wildenhain <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 10:10:16 +0200

>>> Does it really need one since it supports JDBC and ODBC?

actually JDBC, ODBC and even that SDBC driver available
for OO and postgres work quite well - however for some
reason OO wants to parse the SQL expression with its own
naive SQL parser befor anything gets sent to the database.
So in the end beside some simple select foo from bartable
there is not much you can do with it. (JOIN? Group by?
function call? Forget it ;)

So I think not only the driver (and the bundling) but
overall support of SQL and specifiacally some dialect
specifics of postgres should come in.

Regards
Tino Wildenhain

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From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:03:53 -0700

Tom,

>  or is the real

OO-Fu, mostly.  I've already posted to the DBA project on OOo.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

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From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:17:15 -0500

Moving to -www

> end-user of the web site that they should follow the Support link to

Given the amount of stuff that we could be highlighting on the front
page but can't fit there, what about having one section of the page that
rotates through those things, featuring them on the front page. These
could be intersperesed with the featured user box, or could run along
side it (moving the support us, latest releases and shortcuts to
somewhere else, probably the bottom of the page).
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461

---

From: "Jim C. Nasby" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:20:05 -0500

> > LAMS, adopted a sensible database approach, but then went solely
 
I have a theory that there's a lot of people who would love to help the
community, but since they're not good enough to work on the backend they
doubt there's anything else they can do. This is something that they
could do, we'd just need to provide a place for these people to get in
touch with each other and promote it.
-- 
Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant      [email-masked]
Pervasive Software      http://pervasive.com    work: 512-231-6117
vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf       cell: 512-569-9461