Subject: An actually *useful* mail-list message footer

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:20:23 -0500

I present for your consideration an example of what Apple is appending to
lists.apple.com traffic these days:

	 _______________________________________________
	Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
	X11-users mailing list      ([email-masked])
	Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/tgl%40sss.pgh.pa.us
	
	This email sent to [email-masked]

(This is in addition to List-Unsubscribe and the other standard headers.)

I don't know whether the mail software we use can cope with customizing
trailers per-user like this.  But if it can, I submit that an
unmistakable how-to-unsubscribe link would be lots more useful than the
TIPS are.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 13:04:49 -0800

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 15:20:23 -0500
Tom Lane <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I don't know whether the mail software we use can cope with
> customizing trailers per-user like this.  But if it can, I submit
> that an unmistakable how-to-unsubscribe link would be lots more
> useful than the TIPS are.

+1

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- -- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director |  PostgreSQL political pundit

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2008 23:30:11 -0400

Done, almost ... can't do it "per user", since Majordomo sends out messasges in 
batches, not one per individual user, *unless* delivery has failed at which 
point it starts sending out individual messages for that particular user so 
that it can count 'bounces' ...

But, I have it showing hte same URL we have on the archives itself ...

In theory, it should show up on this message as such ...

- --On Saturday, March 01, 2008 15:20:23 -0500 Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> 	Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/x11-users/tgl%40sss.pgh.pa.us 	
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 01:58:34 -0300

> that it can count 'bounces' ...

Can we have the TIP start with "-- " on a line by itself?  That would
help email clients to mark it as a signature.

I tried on pgsql-es-ayuda, but I noticed that it removed the trailing
blank, which is significant :-(

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:12:50 -0400

Example of what you mean?

- --On Sunday, March 02, 2008 01:58:34 -0300 Alvaro Herrera 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> Done, almost ... can't do it "per user", since Majordomo sends out messasges
>> in  batches, not one per individual user, *unless* delivery has failed at
>> which  point it starts sending out individual messages for that particular
>> user so  that it can count 'bounces' ...
>

- ----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:25:12 -0500

> Example of what you mean?

I think Alvaro's point is that the traditional standard divider line for
signature-like stuff is "-- ".  Two dashes, one space, not more nor
less.  Right now we're using
"---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------"
You can be sure there is no software anywhere in the world that
recognizes that as a divider line.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:48:51 -0400

Hrmmm, I think there is a limitation on the footer, but ... try his one ...

- ----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:57:02 -0500

> Hrmmm, I think there is a limitation on the footer, but ... try his one ...

I got one dash and no space ...

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 02:06:16 -0400

this may not be possible, but if "-- " generates just one dash,let's try "--- " 
and see if that makes a difference ...

- ----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 02:18:19 -0400

'k, can't seem to do anything about the space at the end ... its stripping 
those off in the code itself

- --On Sunday, March 02, 2008 02:06:16 -0400 "Marc G. Fournier"
<[email-masked]> 
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> this may not be possible, but if "-- " generates just one dash,let's try "---
> "  and see if that makes a difference ...
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD)
>
> iD8DBQFHykPY4QvfyHIvDvMRArS6AKCOYWAnrjeTNaHM1t4MBRZLzV68oQCeMHHq
> vgqzOU99t3CR1PNEwD3hcpQ=
> =G67/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> --
> pgsql-www mailing list ([email-masked])
> http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr?domain=postgresql.org&extra=pgsql-www

- ----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:21:48 -0500

> and see if that makes a difference ...

Hm, two dashes and no space ... better, certainly, but not perfect.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 14:30:49 -0000

NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message

>  http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr?domain=postgresql.org&extra=pgsql-www

The first line is, in my opinion, both obscure and rude. I doubt most
ordinary readers of our mailing list know exactly what an "admin request" is.
They may even think it has something to do with admin-ing Postgres itself.
It certainly will sound odd on the pgsql-admin list. :)

The link provided should be shorter: a http redirect would do that quite
nicely. Additionally, the above link does not work, and only brings you to
a generic page for all mailing lists at postgresql.org. Perhaps this one?:

http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr/domain=postgresql.org?func=lists-long-full&extra=pgsql-general

If we are replacing the sig, I'd recommend something like this:

--
Sent from the [email-masked] mailing list.
To unsubscribe or change your settings, please visit
http://postgresql.org/lists/pgsql-general
or email [email-masked]

--
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200803020926
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 07:29:32 -0800

On Sun,  2 Mar 2008 14:30:49 -0000

> If we are replacing the sig, I'd recommend something like this:

I would remove the comment about majordomo-owner as a whole. Email the
address what?

Joshua D. Drake

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:33:13 -0000

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>

> I would remove the comment about majordomo-owner as a whole. Email
> the address what?

Unsubscribe requests, problems, etc. Unless we are now at the point
where we are comfortable assuming that everyone has web access.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200803021032
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:20:50 -0500

+1

> where we are comfortable assuming that everyone has web access.

The List-foo headers already provide that info for anyone who's truly
web-disabled.  I agree with JD that that's got to be a tiny minority.

I would go with something like this:

--
Sent via pgsql-www mailing list ([email-masked])
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr?domain=postgresql.org&extra=pgsql-www

BTW, I don't find that there's anything wrong with that link, whereas
the one suggested by Greg gives me a 404.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:55:03 -0400

Change made as written below ...

- ----

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 15:17:37 -0800

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 11:20:50 -0500

This is the actual link (if we are going to use the main site):

http://www.postgresql.org/community/lists/subscribe

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 23:34:48 +0000

And this time for the list :-)

I'm not sure about 'subscribe' but 'unsubscribe' in a message causes
it to be held for moderation. We should check (and stop) that if
adding 'subscribe' to the footers, otherwise we'll have to start
moderating replies!

On 3/2/08, Joshua D. Drake <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFHyzWRATb/zqfZUUQRAo0XAKCTRIQCiONqYIxRNTsH81bpsv7UgACfQ3Nc
> SFBL2YwGs9F7vZdZ9pLZiOQ=
> =qaf+

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 20:01:45 -0400

Good catch ... changed to "To make canges to your Subscription", which 
shouldn't catch anything, I don't believe ... this is the current list that we 
trap based on:

configset GLOBAL admin_body <<ENDAAB
/^accept$/i
/^reject$/i
/\badd me\b/i
/\bdelete me\b/i
/\bremove\s+me\b/i
/\bchange\b.*\baddress\b/
/\bsignoff\b/i
/\bsubscribe\b/i
/^sub\b/i
/\bunsubscribe\b/i
/^unsub\b/i
/^\s*help\s*$/i
/^\s*info\s*$/i
/^\s*info\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*lists\s*$/i
/^\s*which\s*$/i
/^\s*which\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*index\s*$/i
/^\s*index\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*who\s*$/i
/^\s*who\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*get\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*get\s+\S+\s+\S+\s*$/i
/^\s*approve\b/i
/^\s*passwd\b/i
/^\s*newinfo\b/i
/^\s*newconfig\b/i
/^\s*writeconfig\b/i
/^\s*mkdigest\b/i
ENDAAB

- ----

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:42:02 -0300

> the one suggested by Greg gives me a 404.

The bit that's wrong about this URL is that it's not specific to the
pgsql-www list -- it's a general form for all lists; the "extra=foo"
stuff is being ignored.  I don't understand why you got a 404 for Greg's
URL.  Are you sure you didn't mis-paste it?  I tried on a private web
session to make sure there are no cookies or open sessions, at it works
well for me.  It can also be made shorter easily (because we don't use
the virtual domain stuff):

http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr/?func=lists-long-full&extra=pgsql-www

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:22:48 +0100

> http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr/?func=lists-long-full&extra=pgsql-www

At the risk of giving myself more work ;-), perhaps we should refer to some
place on our main website that just does a redirect? That'll at least look
prettier for the user. Something like
http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/unsub?pgsql-www or like that? Hmm. Maybe
it's not all that much nicer looking...

//Magnus

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:27:20 -0300

> it's not all that much nicer looking...

Well, if you can make it so that 

http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/unsubscribe/pgsql-www 

redirects to the URL above, it does seem a lot better.

Perhaps rather than "unsubscribe" we should use something like
"list-settings" etc, because the page does some more stuff than just
unsub.

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:31:19 +0100

> "list-settings" etc, because the page does some more stuff than just

That should be doable with a .htaccess rule for mod_rewrite, so it's then
trivial. 

But even if you can't do it with mod_rewrite, we could do it with some
custom PHP, with a bit more work.

So - absolutely doable, once we decide where we want it to go.

//Magnus

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 10:51:44 -0500

> So - absolutely doable, once we decide where we want it to go.

+1 for a more readable link.  I don't much care what it is exactly,
but would suggest not exposing "wwwmaster" or anything that is part
of the website's internal infrastructure.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:00:12 -0500 (EST)

> it's not all that much nicer looking...

I have now realized the Postgres FAQ was lacking in providing
unsubscribe information, and in not promoting the use of eliminatecc and
selfcopy for people who want it.  I have added a new FAQ item:

	1.15) How do I unsubscribe from the PostgreSQL email lists? How do I
	avoid receiving duplicate emails?
	
	The PostgreSQL Majordomo <URL> page allows subscribing or
	unsubscribing from any of the PostgreSQL email lists. (You might
	need to have your Majordomo password emailed to you to log in.)
	
	All PostgreSQL email lists are configured so a group reply goes to the
	email list and the original email author. This is done so users receive
	the quickest possible email replies. If you would prefer not to receive
	duplicate email from the list in cases where you already receive an
	email directly, check eliminatecc from the Majordomo Change Settings
	page. You can also prevent yourself from receiving copies of emails you
	post to the lists by unchecking selfcopy.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[email-masked]>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:09:34 +0100

> Good catch ... changed to "To make canges to your Subscription", which

"Subscription" should not be capitalized.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:10:09 -0300

> selfcopy for people who want it.  I have added a new FAQ item:

May I suggest splitting it into two questions?  There doesn't seem to be
much point in keeping them together.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:40:33 -0500 (EST)

> much point in keeping them together.

Uh, I can but the fact is I need to give them information about how to
log into that page for both items.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:16:08 -0300

> of the website's internal infrastructure.

*nudge*

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:46:46 +0100

> > of the website's internal infrastructure.

Was there ever agreement on what page it should point to?

//Magnus

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:13:04 -0300

> Was there ever agreement on what page it should point to?

The link Greg provided seems to be the best candidate:

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:35:21 +0100

> http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr/domain=postgresql.org?func=lists-long-full&extra=pgsql-general

Ok, I have a .htaccess rule that does this. Since we're sending it to a
preferences page, it seems reasonable to name it mailpref (or so) instead
of unsub.

So http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
seems reasonable?

You can test it out at
http://magnus-static.pgadmin.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

(by all means, try out other lists)

Good enough to commit?

//Magnus

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:41:36 -0300

> preferences page, it seems reasonable to name it mailpref (or so) instead

Thanks.

> So http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

Yeah.

> (by all means, try out other lists)

It doesn't seem to work for "change_the_name".  All other lists seem to
work.  (Yes, that's a valid list.  Yes, it's a stupid name.)

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:44:47 +0100

> work.  (Yes, that's a valid list.  Yes, it's a stupid name.)

Yeah, underscore wasn't in the allowed chars in the regexp. And yes, it
should've been change-the-name to be consistent with our other lists.
Is the list alive at all, or should it be deleted?

Either way, I've added underscore, and it works now. Any objections, or
shuld I commit?

//Magnus

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:47:47 +0000

>  Is the list alive at all, or should it be deleted?

As far as I'm concerned, it should be removed. It was a knee-jerk
reaction to a problem that was eventually solved in a more appropriate
way (eventually being the major problem I'll admit).

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:45:40 -0500 (EST)

> way (eventually being the major problem I'll admit).

Agreed.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:04:58 -0400

I thought the idea was to make a shorter URL that would then do a redirect to 
that URL ... ?

- --On Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:13:04 -0300 Alvaro Herrera 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> To make changes to your Subscription:

- ----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:05:55 -0400

> So http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

I like it ... let me know when to make the change on the majordomo side ...

- ----

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 12:21:09 +0100

> I like it ... let me know when to make the change on the majordomo side ...

Ok, it works off at least one of the mirrors now, so give it a couple of
hours to make sure it has hit all the mirrors, and then go ahead with the
change.

//Magnus