Subject: mailing lists for US PostgreSQL Association

From: "Selena Deckelmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:17:57 -0700

Hello!

May we please have the following lists created:

pgsql-us-general (public)
pgsql-us-board (private)

We'd like them to be linked from the "Regional" sections of the
Archives and Mailing lists pages.

Thank you!!

-selena

-- 
Selena Deckelmann
United States PostgreSQL Association - http://www.postgresql.us
PDXPUG - http://pugs.postgresql.org/pdx
Me - http://www.chesnok.com/daily

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:13:44 -0300

In keeping with the EU Assocation, I created:

 pgus-general
 pgus-board

This also keeps the distinction of the official *project* lists as being 
prefix'd by pgsql-* ...

- --On Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:17:57 -0700 Selena Deckelmann 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list ([email-masked])
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

- -- 
Marc G. Fournier        Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:01:50 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:13:44 -0300
"Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> This also keeps the distinction of the official *project* lists as
> being prefix'd by pgsql-* ...
> 

I am confused. The eu association is pgsql-eu-general (which is why we
asked for pgsql-us-general. Or is this wrong?

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-eu-general/

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
- -- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
      PostgreSQL political pundit | Mocker of Dolphins

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:09:59 -0300

> asked for pgsql-us-general. Or is this wrong?

pgeu-board

pgsql-eu-general is a regional group, not the association ... if that isn't the 
case, then that needs to be renamed to pgeu-general also ...

- --

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:13:20 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:09:59 -0300
"Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > I am confused. The eu association is pgsql-eu-general (which is why
> > we asked for pgsql-us-general. Or is this wrong?
> 
> pgeu-board

O.k. so pgus-board makes sense. Cool.

> 
> pgsql-eu-general is a regional group, not the association ... if that
> isn't the case, then that needs to be renamed to pgeu-general also ...

My understanding is that pgsql-eu-general == postgresql.eu == the
association. I could be wrong.. Of course if I am, the eu-general
list has been way off topic for the last couple of months :P Dave,
Magnus, Ads?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: Devrim GÜNDÜZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:18:47 -0700

Hi,

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 21:13 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> association

No, they are different lists. As Marc stated, pgsql-eu-general is a
regional list.

Regards,
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ , RHCE
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:40:05 +0000

>  list has been way off topic for the last couple of months :P Dave,

Yes, pgsql-eu-general is the regional list, as should be
pgsql-us-general. pgeu-board was actually a typo when requested. It
should have been pgsql-eu-board as the regional board for Europe.

So pgsql-us-general and pgsql-us-board seem correct to me.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:00:17 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:40:05 +0000

> So pgsql-us-general and pgsql-us-board seem correct to me.

O.k. that is what I was thinking as well. So marc if you could correct
the list names that would be great. Dave do you want eu board fixed
too? (Just for consistency sake)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:01:44 +0000

>  too? (Just for consistency sake)

*I* do, but we should probably ask the PGEU board seeing as it's their list :-p

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:05:35 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:01:44 +0000
"Dave Page" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> >  O.k. that is what I was thinking as well. So marc if you could
> > correct the list names that would be great. Dave do you want eu
> > board fixed too? (Just for consistency sake)
> 

Doh! good point :) Magnus?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:22:18 +0100

> Doh! good point :) Magnus?

Sure, I can live with changing that. It's only the four of us on it.

Just make sure things don't suddenly appear in the archives when it's done.

//Magnus

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:23:45 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:22:18 +0100
 
> Just make sure things don't suddenly appear in the archives when it's

Of course. I will ping alvaro to add it to the blacklist this morning
(before creation)

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:04:10 -0300

> Of course. I will ping alvaro to add it to the blacklist this morning

Done.

I notice that Marc failed to set pgus-board to private archives,
apparently (though it's empty) ... I blacklisted that one, too.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:14:22 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:04:10 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > Of course. I will ping alvaro to add it to the blacklist this
> > morning (before creation)
> 
> Done.
> 

That will be switching to pgsql-us-board, so if you could blacklist
that too.

Joshau D. Drake 

- --

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:43:27 +0100

> pgsql-us-general (public)

Why are you not using your own domain postgresql.us for this?

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:46:22 +0100

> pgsql-us-general (public)

Maybe I ask why you need a "general" U.S. list?  What is supposed to be 
discussed on there?

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From: "Selena Deckelmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:46:42 -0700

>  Why are you not using your own domain postgresql.us for this?

We're joining the pgsql-eu group in this same mailing list space.

-selena

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:47:49 +0100

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> association.

Note that these are actually *three* different entities.

---

From: "Selena Deckelmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:49:58 -0700

>  Maybe I ask why you need a "general" U.S. list?  What is supposed to be

We will use this for the same things that pgsql-eu does:

* Discussion of board meetings, strategy and logistics of USPA
* General non-technical communication related to USPA's activities
* Status reports and updates on events and progress on goals

-selena

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:52:03 +0000

>  Note that these are actually *three* different entities.

No they aren't. pgsql-eu-general was setup following the first real
planning meeting for the PG EU association in Prato, per an agreed
action item. postgresql.eu was donated to the group for use by the
association at the same meeting by Hans form Cybertec.

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:52:27 +0100

> We're joining the pgsql-eu group in this same mailing list space.

Well, first of all, the pgsql-eu-general list is, as just discussed, not 
actually related to any "group".  And secondly, the European group is just 
two weeks old, and we are going to have more groups popping up now, it's the 
right time to think about the issue in general.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:57:30 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 20:52:27 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Well, first of all, the pgsql-eu-general list is, as just discussed,
> not actually related to any "group".

Not according to Dave or Magnus.

>  And secondly, the European
> group is just two weeks old, and we are going to have more groups
> popping up now, it's the right time to think about the issue in
> general.
> 

Certainly.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: "Selena Deckelmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:04:31 -0700

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:
>  actually related to any "group".

That's not what I read from Dave Page, or from participating in the
pgsql-eu-general list.

> And secondly, the European group is just

Yeah, we're going to start having namespace collisions :)

We already discussed the classification, and I thought everyone came
to a consensus in that thread about Regional/User
Group/User/Developer.

See Alvaro and Marc's work on updating Majordomo categories.

-selena

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:03:35 +0100

> * Status reports and updates on events and progress on goals

Well, that is not "general".  Name it pgsql-us-usergroup or something then.  
The pgsql-eu-general list isn't general either.  It's a mistake.  Let's be 
more precise and accurate in the future.

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:07:41 +0100

> association at the same meeting by Hans form Cybertec.

Then perhaps this should be clarified.  For instance, postgresql.eu shows a 
web page that has nothing to do with a user group.  And there is no 
description of the pgsql-eu-general mailing list that describes that it has 
anything to do with the incorporated European user group.  Its description on 
the archives page, "European PostgreSQL community" would certainly appear to 
imply a much wider set of people and interests.  Also, if you name a 
list -general, then it is general, not specific.  Hah! :)

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:10:17 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:03:35 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:

> 
> Well, that is not "general".  Name it pgsql-us-usergroup or something
> then. The pgsql-eu-general list isn't general either.  It's a
> mistake.  Let's be more precise and accurate in the future.

Peter if this was a concern for you, I wish you would have brought it
up sooner... We have:

pgsql-fr-generale
pgsql-ru-general
pgsql-tr-genel
pgsql-eu-general
pgsql-it-generale 

and now we are requesting pgsql-us-general.

So either they are all mistakes, or?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:11:21 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:07:41 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Then perhaps this should be clarified.  For instance, postgresql.eu
> shows a web page that has nothing to do with a user group.

Currently yes. They are in the process of transferring the domain.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake 

- --

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:13:44 +0100

> That's not what I read from Dave Page, or from participating in the

Well, I could obviously be wrong, because I can't read what was in people's 
minds when they set up certain structures, but when someone sets up a 
pgsql-foo-general list, then it certainly seems to be a list for anything 
related to "foo", rather than a PostgreSQL user group in the "foo" region.

The fact that most of the early discussion about "anything" in the "eu" region 
was about forming a user group should not be seen as evidence that the 
pgsql-eu-general list is specifically and exclusively for EU user group 
affairs now.  What would we do if anyone really wanted a list for general EU 
things?

> >  two weeks old, and we are going to have more groups popping up now, it's
> > the right time to think about the issue in general.
>

Well, pgsql-eu-general is still listed as a regional list, which I was under 
the impression was its intent, but if it is a user group list now, it should 
be moved, and aliased to something more descriptive.

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:26:26 +0100

> So either they are all mistakes, or?

The language-coded lists are catch-alls for PostgreSQL-related things in that 
language.  That is presumably because there is not enough traffic to have 
more specifically themed lists.  Therefore, the naming is appropriate.  The 
mission of pgsql-eu-general is unclear to me at this point, so I cannot 
comment.

The proposed purpose of pgsql-us-general is, however, not a catch-all list for 
discussions about PostgreSQL in the USA.  I was told that it is specifically 
intended for matters of the USPA.  A more accurate mailing list title would 
be to everyone's benefit, so you don't get useless and off-topic traffic.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:28:19 -0700

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 22:13:44 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Well, pgsql-eu-general is still listed as a regional list, which I
> was under the impression was its intent, but if it is a user group
> list now, it should be moved, and aliased to something more
> descriptive.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I thought I would offer an
observation. Some of this makes some bold assumptions on the part of
the PGEU so if I am incorrect (Magnus?) please correct me :). 

I see postgresql-eu-general as the associated public list for PGEU that
anyone is allowed to join and partipate in. For example, I am not a
PGEU member but I can subscribe, offer my ideas and generally
collaborate. PGEU is welcome to take those ideas and implement them or
not. The "business" end of PGEU is going to be handled per
pgsql-eu-board.

I believe that our intention is the same with the pgsql-us-general in
that it is the general United States list. It is where all public
discussion for PGUS will take place but I can't imagine that we would
limit participation or otherwise limit the collaboration capabilities
to only those that are members of PGUS. I hope that those from across
the pond will also join the US list to help increase cooperation
between them.

In this way the -general makes sense. They are not "advocacy" lists.
They are not "hackers" lists. They are regional lists that are general
to the specific region, the fact that they have a regional non profit
associated with them, is just another facet.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

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From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:42:32 +0100

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> that it is the general United States list.

Well, that is not what Selena said.  Her agenda was quite specific.

---

From: "Selena Deckelmann" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:50:47 -0700

>  Well, that is not what Selena said.  Her agenda was quite specific.

:)  I was giving examples of what we might talk about.  I was not
creating a definitive list of every topic we would ever allow.

I understand what you're getting at, Peter.

We've started categorizing things a bit better with the groups, but I
don't think that adding -usergroups to the end of the name really
captures what is happening any better than -general does.  In fact,
-usergroups is even more misleading, because it will be confused with
the PUGs.

And, at the end, I don't have a better naming convention in mind
either. I have been thinking about it, but everything i've come up
with is no better than what we have.

-selena

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:16:00 -0300

> not. The "business" end of PGEU is going to be handled per

Then the list should have been pgeu-general ... my understand when this was 
created was that it was a regional, not user group, list ... similar to our 
language lists ...

The pgsql-* name space has, so far, always been community related stuff ... 
User Groups fell under [email-masked] ...

- --

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:17:22 -0300

> * Status reports and updates on events and progress on goals

Okay, then pgsql-eu-general should be renamed to pgeu-general, as it isn't a 
community list, its an association list ...

- --

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 00:19:10 -0300

> So either they are all mistakes, or?

Actually, apparently pgsql-eu-general is a mistake, but the language ones are 
exactly "as advertised", general community mailing lists providing a means for 
posting language specific requests ... it was my understanding that 
pgsql-eu-general was to provide a more regional group for discussions, not as, 
as Selena describes it, a general list for discussing PGEU related stuff ...

- --