Subject: Re: Requirements for updated site

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:13:46 -0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexey Borzov [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: 15 January 2004 11:22
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Requirements for updated site
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I will not bother being polite either...

I wasn't aware I had stopped being polite. If so I apologise.

> Dave Page wrote:
> >>I presume that 99.9% of these is documentation. And it won't be 
> >>translated, at least not in *this* way.
> > 
> > Why not? The whole point is to have *one* system for the whole site 
> > and not a mish-mash of different ways of building bits of the site.
> 
> Because it is STUPID. Because the docs are written in DocBook 
> and HTML is built from this. Because when you translate 
> "just" HTML, you won't be able to convert "translated" docs 
> to other formats like PS or PDF. Because doc translation is 
> far beyond the scope of website project.
> 
> Enough reasons?

Not really because what you have written makes little sense to me. Why
can't you convert translated HTML to other formats? What does it matter
to the web project anyway?

> Separation of PHP and HTML (or rather of domain and 
> presentation logic: you are keeping SQL *and* HTML in one 
> file, tangled in rather interesting ways!) is not an answer 
> in one case: when you are the only one developing something 
> and when you don't want anynone's dirty hands touch your 
> precious-s-s code.

Again, you are not reading what I have said.

1) I advocated some seperation and cleanup of code. I *do not* want a
system where it is split into *too many* separate places, thus making it
a nightmare to see the whole picture easily.

2) It is not my precious-s-s code. I did not write it.

> 
> Wow. That's why main menu is in 'x-small'? For *readability* 
> and *accessibility* reasons? Wow.

Which on my standard configuration Windows XP machine is the same size
font as the font I'm typing this email in - also standard for Outlook
2003. When coded it was tested in many browsers on many platforms with
no reported anomolies that I am aware of.

You will note that if a user increases the font size in their browser,
then the text increases appropriately rather than being fixed at a
smaller size in the stylesheet.

> > As I said before, we have a specific todo list here. First 
> build the 
> > framework, second update the design and third, restructure all 
> > appropriate sites and content.
> 
> Well, right above you objected to building the framework and 
> making is easier to
>   update design. Where's truth?

We want a framework. We do not want an overcomplicated framework. Why
split everything into a dozen different files and a template engine if 3
or 4 files with a little PHP code will work just fine, and be just as
maintainable, if not more so?

> > Much as you may not like the existing design, it is tidy, 
> structured 
> > and frames and focuses the user on the main content.
> 
> Well, as you are probably the designer of the thing, I only 
> have to agree. This is *absolutely* fabulous design, the best 
> I've ever seen. I sincerely hope that MySQL AB will hire you 
> to redesign their site as well, so that the projects will be 
> able to compete on even grounds!

Again, you're not listening. Yes, I coded the original portal, however
the design was the collaborative work of a group of people, including
members of -core. What can possibly make you imagine that you can come
in here, tell us that the work and designs agreed by a number of people
is crap and expect us to rewrite everything your way without discussion?

Now don't get me wrong, the current design is not perfect, but it was
agreed by concensus. We are open to suggestions in the correct forum
(here or [email-masked]) and have implemented numerous in the
past, however as stated though, we already have a basic plan in place,
and whatever suggestions we take on will have to fit in with that.

> I won't mention the fact that most of the questions about 
> postgresql I see go like this: "where do I get the windows 
> port?", "where do I get a specific interface?", "does 
> postgresql have replication?". 

All of which can be seen within 2 clicks of the homepage, but none of
your suggestions would address that in any way as far as I could see.
Some wording might change, but the usefulness of that is subjective.

> But that's me, I read wrong 
> lists and forums, such questions are not asked on pgsql-www, 
> because it is conveniently closed.

It was closed, it is not now. Following a change of ppl we opened the
list and made the archives public. Anyone is free to subscribe - the
only restriction is that we wish to stay tighly on topic so
subscriptions must be approved to ensure all list members truly have an
interest in helping out.

For those that simply wish to mail off a suggestion, the
[email-masked] address may be used. That address is monitored
by various ppl including some that are not part of the web team to
ensure that  people get an appropriate response.

Regards, Dave.

---

From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:37:18 +0100

>to the web project anyway?

It can be used, it isn't the best format to describe things in.  E.g.
Japanese has no concept of bold or italic that I am aware of.  They use
katakana for this within their kanji.
Something like DocBook has been designed to handle the fact of
<warning>blah</warning> in whatever language to be translated through
stylesheets into whatever is appropriate for a particular language.
Never mind me on this topic though, I am just pedantic on this, since I
meddle too much with l10n/i18n and technical writing. :)

>> able to compete on even grounds!

Please put the sarcasm aside, it never helps a clear communication.

>is crap and expect us to rewrite everything your way without discussion?

Well, Marc has said often enough he can't do webdesign worth a jack. ;)
But seriously, is everybody on this list a webdesigner?
I know I am not a professional one, I just dabble and try to be very
pedantic about designs which place user interaction on the first place.
If you can then make things aesthetically nice it is a very good thing.

>and whatever suggestions we take on will have to fit in with that.

I sincerely hope that you will do away with the menus on both side of
the center, continuously scrolling up and down is generally disliked by
users.

What doesn't help, but IIRC that's being remedied, is that a lot of
links which fall under postgresql.org have different designs.  This is
highly annoying from a user perspective.

Now that I finally have some more time on my hands I can finally start
to put results where my mouth is. :)

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono
PGP fingerprint: 2D92 980E 45FE 2C28 9DB7  9D88 97E6 839B 2EAC 625B
http://www.tendra.org/   | http://diary.in-nomine.org/
Don't try to find the Answer where there ain't no Question here...

---

From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:08:09 +0300

Hi!

> I wasn't aware I had stopped being polite. If so I apologise.

Oh, it's a matter of miscommunication then. :[

Please excuse the sarcasm in the message, I'll start a new thread where 
will address most of the points you raised.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:14:28 -0400 (AST)

> no reported anomolies that I am aware of.

Under Mozilla, on a 1600x1200 screen, I've never had any problems reading
the current font, and I don't play with my font settings in the browser
...

> maintainable, if not more so?

Okay, I'm a bit curious here, and hope that Alexey can explain it ... what
exactly is a template engine, and how does it work?  Alexey, just because
you are familiar with one doesn't help unless there are others as familiar
... and there needs to be a *really* clear (and well justified) reason for
using one so that others will want to learn how to ... so if you can
explain, and maybe provide an example?  That may help ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:23:15 -0400 (AST)

> Well, Marc has said often enough he can't do webdesign worth a jack. ;)

Hey, I never said I was *that* bad ... but you are right, I'm close :)

> But seriously, is everybody on this list a webdesigner? I know I am not
> a professional one, I just dabble and try to be very pedantic about
> designs which place user interaction on the first place. If you can then
> make things aesthetically nice it is a very good thing.

Agreed, but even someone that isn't a webdesigner has an opinion on
wha they do find nice, and what they don't ... and it was with the
opinions of many that the web site was designed ... I might not be able to
really explain why I don't like Alexey's first attempt, I just know that
the best I can say is that my eyes couldn't seem to focus on anywhere ...
several others have commented similarly ...

> the center, continuously scrolling up and down is generally disliked by

'k, not against the getting rid of the dual menus, but am curious as to
how that would reduce the need for scrolling?  Wouldn't that just mean a
longer menu on the one side to scroll through?

> highly annoying from a user perspective.

I think everyone here already agrees with that :)

----

---

From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 06:46:46 +0100

>several others have commented similarly ...

I need to dig up the URL from the archives, hit 'D' a tad bit too fast.

[dual menus]

>longer menu on the one side to scroll through?

Well, personally I wonder why you use such a small portion of the
browser window.  Those grey areas on both sides of the content are just
not used, which is a shame.

I was toying with getting the basic design redone in 4.01 STRICT HTML
with CSS: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/pgsql/

It is butt-ugly due to the text/fontfaces not having their proper sizes,
but it should illustrate the fill.  Now, if you make the fontfaces the
way they should be, you might have fit everything on the page without
scrolling (at least on a 1280x1024 resolution using opera).

Problem with scrolling is that not every person has as steady a hand as
most of us, thus making scrolling a very difficult exercise for them.

Part of it is a preference thing, but:

- either place all the relevant links/sections at the top of the screen
  in a navigational bar (Which MySQL AB seems to do)
- or place it on the left hand side with clear links

People seem to expect these kind of set-ups nowadays.  And like you
said, those three columns make your eyes wander too much, just like on
slashdot.org.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:59:53 -0400 (AST)

> not used, which is a shame.

k, I understand what you mean here ... I'm one that doesn't like it when a
site stretches itself out as wide as the browser will take it, but that's
just me ... with a right/left menu, the 'take up the whole browser' site
spends just too much time going wide<->narrow depending on the page
content ...

> scrolling (at least on a 1280x1024 resolution using opera).

Except how many ppl are running that high a resolution ... ?

> most of us, thus making scrolling a very difficult exercise for them.

Agreed ... not always possible to keep off the scrolling though ...

> said, those three columns make your eyes wander too much, just like on

the thing is, I don't find the current site causes my eyes to jump around
... as someone else mentioned, wtih the left/right menu, your eyes tend to
be more focused 'center' ... its balanced ...

Alexey's mock up seemed impressionistic in its layout ... throw the paint
against the wall and see how it falls :(

----

---

From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:31:22 +0100

>explain, and maybe provide an example?  That may help ...

See for example: www.template-toolkit.org

You create pseudo-HTML pages which have specialised code/markup which
gets replaced on the fly.

E.g. each page has:

[ %HEADER% ]

Which gets replaced by the file header.html.tmpl (assuming you defined
HEADER to be that file somewhere).

Just an example I created, might not match what template-toolkit does.