Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 23:02:32 -0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Gavin M. Roy
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:45
> To: Bruce Momjian
> Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus; 
> [email-masked]; Omar Kilani; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate 
> PostgreSQL.org Design
> 
> 
> If I felt like there was a way to help get the site done that 
> I could truly contribute to, other than offering opinions on 
> direction and what not, I would be there doing it. 

Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
the short term if you can contribute.

I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and
shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me
- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point
of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work
we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives
of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely
disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each
week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually
help out. 

As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I
can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get
flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already
discussed or even done. So, here's the current plan again:

1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list.
2) Make the new website live.
3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites.
3b) Review/update/sanitise all content.

In addition to which, I've have suggested to a number of volunteers that
a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs.

Regards, Dave

---

From: "Gavin M. Roy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:56:28 -0800

>the short term if you can contribute.
Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if 
it's in cvs, how to get at it.  Alexey posted a tarball of his source, 
but after my last contribution via email to the current  Lucaz design 
went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd 
rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes 
to actually get something done.  Add to that lack of documention to 
coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not 
wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am.

>shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me
To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you 
werent one of them Dave ;).  That's not to say.. well never mind.

>week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually
I understand your point here, and don't disagree.  I can only state that 
in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with 
"Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*.  There are many ways 
for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up 
with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get 
lost.  Too little too late.  Unless something is overly complex and 
wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly 
easy and could take less than a day.

>discussed or even done. 
I've been on here a while, and I notice the flame wars.  I try not to 
stir them up.  Without a clear person in charge, it's collective group 
think, and in collective group think people will always disagree and 
stuff won't get done en masse.

>So, here's the current plan again:
>
Point me to the todo list and put up with my questions about how to get 
stuff put in approved, working, etc and hopefully I can contribute.  
Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's, 
sorry Lucaz...

>a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs.
That would be nice, I know of one that works really well ;-)

Gavin

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 00:44:18 -0500

On Friday 12 November 2004 18:56, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> it's in cvs, how to get at it.  

Gavin, you are on the -www list aren't you? It's been posted there many times. 
Just in case not, it's at http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo

> Alexey posted a tarball of his source, 
> to actually get something done.  

Huh?  IIRC the last patch I saw you send in was applied by Dave a couple days 
later?

> Add to that lack of documention to 

Heh... well, we do have a couple of minor docs in the CVS about coding 
standards... um... I'll just ignore the part about Alexey.

> "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*.

This is generally true only if it is a rehash of something we have been over 
dozens of times.  Kind of like when people pop-up on -hackers and say "I'm 
ready to start coding up a threaded back-end, which files should I be looking 
at"    Otherwise my experience has been more of people asking what they can 
do to help and us responding with "look at the todo/look at the portal code" 
and then people either disappear or people point out they were hoping to 
implement some CMS or other radical whizbang code and then they disappear 
after we we don't get enthusiastic about it. 

> There are many ways 

You have to realize that this is at least the 5th design we have seen for the 
new site, none of which get us any closer to getting the new site launched if 
for no other reason that each of these designs seems to spur another round of 
website flaming.  Also, for the record, I ask the tinysofa people if they 
would be interested in submitting some updated banners and/or buttons for our 
propaganda page and got no response.  That's another example of us trying to 
find ways for people to get involved and people not bothering when it's not 
on their personal agenda. 

> stuff won't get done en masse.

We manage to develop the database without a single person in charge, do we 
really have to one person in charge of www?  I don't think so.  Dave and I 
are on the same page, and I think most of the regulars 
(devrim/marc/alexey/john/chris) are as well. 

> >3b) Review/update/sanitise all content.

And actually as I look at this list, I think we could launch the site 
relatively soon.  There are things that look like garbage, but they are no 
worse than what we currently have. I'll take a swing at updating the todo 
list tonight. 

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:55:24 +0300

Hi,

> to actually get something done. 

The project is on gborg: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php

What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember receiving XHTML 
patches from you recently. These were all applied.

> wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am.

What documentation exactly do you want? There is a README on setting up a copy 
of the website in CVS / tarball. I can write more docs certainly, but bear in 
mind that I am not a native English speaker so they may be unclear --- please 
ask in such case.

> "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*.  

That's not "Alexey's" code: it was started by Andreas ~1 year ago. While the 
current version is rewritten quite a bit, still I was continuing the work of 
someone else. What's so hard in doing the same?

> easy and could take less than a day.

Yes, there is nothing difficult in applying the new design and yes, it will take 
less than a day. But I'd like to repeat what I said in private email to Omar: I 
am not interested in doing this myself. If someone else will do this --- fine 
with me. But I do not want to waste my time, 'cause I am not sure that a new 
person with a better design will not surface in a week's time.

> Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's, 

http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo

If you like the new design so much, you can setup a copy of the current website 
(as outlined in the README) and try applying the new design to it. Then you can 
show everyone that it works and send in a patch.

---

From: Gavin Sherry <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:04:42 +1100 (EST)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote:

> What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember
> receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied.

I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy.

> show everyone that it works and send in a patch.

I agree. It seems as though Omar has done this. Omar, can you send a
patch?

Gavin (Sherry)

---

From: Alexey Borzov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:23:04 +0300

Hi,

> I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy.

Ouch. Sorry for that. :)