Subject: Re: [Gforge-admins] PgFoundry Move

From: "Magnus Hagander" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:25:45 +0100

> > My concerns with a plan like this are:
> > A) I do not know linux as well as FreeBSD.
> 
> 80% of the Gforge admins are Linux guys afaik, which is why 
> we need more FreeBSD help.

You're probably going to see that split for anything where you compare
linux with freebsd today, aren't you? Or at least on average.

> > B) Can infrastructure be provided to allow for timely disaster 
> > recovery in the event of JD's hosting falling off the face of the 
> > earth, (much the same way the pg servers in panama fell off a while 
> > ago).
> 
> We don't have this *really* in the case of most of the 
> infrastructure, and this isn't in place for pgFoundry right 
> now with Marc hosting, afaik.  It is an issue we should be 
> concerned with regardless of who's hosting.  That and backup. 
>  I've tried to address what's happening (or not happening as 
> I'm afraid) with backup before.

Yes, backup is definitly more important than failover. But failover is
nice :-)
But in reality, do we have it? As in failover that works in practice as
well. Just look at what happened when there was an attempt to move svr2
(wwwmaster) off unionfs to a new VM *on the same machine*.
It's very good in principle. I'm sure in a lot of cases it works in
practice as well. I'm concerned it doesn't always, and that we are very
relying on certain people to make it work in that case.

> > C) How do we settle on the distro/version of the month, this 
> > fundamental issue within Linux has always left me with a 
> bad taste in 
> > my mouth. (this is a personal item and has nothing to say for the 
> > quality of FreeBSD or Linux/distro).
> 
> Unlike *BSD?  Generally there have been distros like Debian 
> and Slackware that have been server grade for over 10 years 
> and are solid.  I think the distro of the month is a 
> unwarranted slam from FreeBSD people who don't see that 
> others see BSD the same way (Free, Net, Open, etc) just with 
> less choice for their respective communities.  There are lots 
> of Linux distros.  Some are better at the desktop, some are 
> better at the server.  Coming up with a consensus of what to 
> use would be pretty easy to do.  That being said, I don't 

I'd say trivial. Just poll the ppl who'd be expected to admin it for
preferences, and decide on one. Then stick with it as much as you can
:-) There is absolutely no need to do a general poll of the whol
community, since that's definitly going to give you more than you want
:-)

> foresee a day that we'd use Linux just because everything 
> else is running on FreeBSD.  Being consistent is a good thing.

Everything else does not run FreeBSD. All www.postgresql.org servers
except borg (there are 5 in total, IIRC) run Linux today. AFAIK,
archives and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, which
is probably not ideal)

//Magnus

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:32:33 -0800

> linux with freebsd today, aren't you? Or at least on average.
Well yes which is my point. I am not knocking FreeBSD (well
it's software RAID setup is a PITA but other then that).

I am looking at this from a purely... let's talk about resources
issue and our resources are in Linux except for a small handful
of people.

FYI, I can and do use FreeBSD. I prefer Linux.

> relying on certain people to make it work in that case.
If the system is correctly documented and occasionally tested
we should be able to do this.

> community, since that's definitly going to give you more than you want
HAHA... I can see it now:

Vote for which Linux Pgfoundry will run on...

The really bad thing about this is Gentoo would probably win ;)

> archives and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, which
Yes Archives and buildfarm both run on Linux. I don't know
about the others.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: PLphp, PLperl - http://www.commandprompt.com/

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From: "Gavin M. Roy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:33:41 -0800

> linux with freebsd today, aren't you? Or at least on average.

I agree with that.

> relying on certain people to make it work in that case.

Failover is nice, but I don't agree that VM's are the best wait to  
handle fail over.

> community, since that's definitly going to give you more than you want

Yeah I just meant on GForge Admins or the current list of community  
server admins.

> archives and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, which

Except borg? wow.  And here I am a linux guy donating the only FBSD  
box.  ;-)

Gavin

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From: "Gavin M. Roy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:39:11 -0800

> FYI, I can and do use FreeBSD. I prefer Linux.

Same here

> we should be able to do this.

What I'd like to see is a master svn repository for gforge code that  
we use.  that plus database backups would make for easy restore or  
failover if we have issues.  To not use source control on our changes  
to the gforge code seems a bit silly.  Of course this should be  
isolated on a different machine than the gforge machine.

> The really bad thing about this is Gentoo would probably win ;)

Hey now, don't knock Gentoo.  I was a slackware user since 1994 and  
switched to Gentoo a few years back.  I love it.  It's not like it's  
lfs and portage is pretty damn powerful.  ;-)  Don't let those  
funroll-loops guys fool you, it can be serious on the server side too.

Gavin M. Roy
800 Pound Gorilla
[email-masked]

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From: Darcy Buskermolen <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:39:58 -0800

> Except borg? wow.  And here I am a linux guy donating the only FBSD

if it makes you feel better ca3 is a FreeBSD box :-)

Which reminds me there is something bogus with the checker for mirror 
freshness, because it says I'm behind by a "long" interval yet I picked up 
all the point releases before the announcement hit the lists...

-- 
Darcy Buskermolen
Wavefire Technologies Corp.

http://www.wavefire.com
ph: 250.717.0200
fx: 250.763.1759

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:44:43 -0800

> isolated on a different machine than the gforge machine.
Well I am 100% for that! I can set up a trac and everything!

> funroll-loops guys fool you, it can be serious on the server side too.
I have you beat... I started with SLS (what Slackware was based off of) 
and in general I don't have a problem with Gentoo but I would not use
it in a production server environment. I love using it for development.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:00:15 -0400 (AST)

> archives and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, which 

www.postgresql.org servers other then borg are mirrors, and not critical. 
archives is a mirror, with the original being run on FreeBSD ... and 
search can be recreated on the fly as required ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email-masked]           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:04:44 -0400 (AST)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

> What I'd like to see is a master svn repository for gforge code that we use. 
> that plus database backups would make for easy restore or failover if we have 
> issues.  To not use source control on our changes to the gforge code seems a 
> bit silly.  Of course this should be isolated on a different machine than the 
> gforge machine.

'k, so what has stop'd you from setting it up?

----

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From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:06:04 -0800

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> archives and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, 
>> which is probably not ideal)
>
> www.postgresql.org servers other then borg are mirrors, and not 
> critical. archives is a mirror, with the original being run on FreeBSD 
> ... and search can be recreated on the fly as required ...
They are not critical? Do you hear yourself man?

search is about to be a Linux machine.

Joshua D. Drake

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From: "Gavin M. Roy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:10:23 -0800

Too many cooks, not wanting to step on toes, not knowing if we had a  
place to store the master repository, not bringing it up because I've  
been too busy with work and other projects and us not having general  
sys admin discussions about pgFoundry.

Gavin

On Jan 16, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>> What I'd like to see is a master svn repository for gforge code  
>> that we use. that plus database backups would make for easy  
>> restore or failover if we have issues.  To not use source control  
>> on our changes to the gforge code seems a bit silly.  Of course  
>> this should be isolated on a different machine than the gforge  
>> machine.
>

Gavin M. Roy
800 Pound Gorilla
[email-masked]

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:20:01 -0400 (AST)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Gavin M. Roy wrote:

> Too many cooks

I thought lack of that was why things weren't getting done ...

> not wanting to step on toes

Step on some toes, we've had a server in place for this for almost a year 
now, having a few toes step'd on might have gotten this moving forward 
faster ...

> not knowing if we had a place to store the master repository

Put it onto the main vServer for now, moving it should be a matter of 
rsync'ng it to a different server after, no?

> bringing it up because I've been too busy with work and other projects

That's always a big one ...

> us not having general sys admin discussions about pgFoundry.

We have a list for it, so no reason why those discussions haven't happened 
...

>>> What I'd like to see is a master svn repository for gforge code that we 
>>> use. that plus database backups would make for easy restore or failover if 
>>> we have issues.  To not use source control on our changes to the gforge 
>>> code seems a bit silly.  Of course this should be isolated on a different 
>>> machine than the gforge machine.
>> 

----

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:21:42 -0400 (AST)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>>> except borg (there are 5 in total, IIRC) run Linux today. AFAIK, archives 
>>> and search also run on linux. (And on a mix of distros, which is probably 
>>> not ideal)
>> 
>> archives is a mirror, with the original being run on FreeBSD ... and search 
>> can be recreated on the fly as required ...

Yup, and if we had to, it could be setup on a different machine just as 
easily ... it rely's on the other servers, it isn't a stand alone ... 
wwwmaster is a standalone, postgresql.org is a stand alone, pgfoundry is a 
stand alone, as is gborg ... everything else *feeds* off of them, 
including search ...

Sorry, didn't mean critical as not-important, I meant critical as in 
easily reproduced from scratch if we had to ...

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