Subject: [Fwd: NDN: Re: [ODBC] Connect without queries?]

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:53:40 -0800

Again, can we please get this buffoon removed from the lists? I as
others have already asked politely. Do I need to be rude?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: NDN: Re: [ODBC] Connect without queries?
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:32:26 -0500
From: [email-masked]
To: Joshua D. Drake <[email-masked]>

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Martin Chayer (Mailbox or Conference is full.)

-- 

      === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
             http://www.commandprompt.com/

Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 00:06:31 +0200

Hello,

> others have already asked politely. Do I need to be rude? 

This is still a problem as of now (Feb 06, 00:02:20 my time). 

I think we should seriously consider moving to Mailman now. This has
been raised several times before, and AFAIR Marc is the only one that is
happy with Majordomo. Right?

With Mailman, we will have a better web interface, human-controllable
web interface. Also we can have more people to administrate the mailing
lists. It also has an e-mail interface so that people, who does not want
to use web interface for moderation issues, can use it.

We are already using Mailman in PGFoundry, and I'm really happy with
that.

I can step up the plate and do initial installation/administration/etc
issues for a test list.

Regards,
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 22:12:34 +0000

> to use web interface for moderation issues, can use it.

Does it now? The only moderation emails I ever get from Mailman require
me to click a link, whereas in mj2 I can reply with 'accept' after
viewing the attached message. That's completely unworkable for me on a
PDA (which I use a lot) and a PITA on a normal PC. Unless Mailman can
now do that, I have no interest in moving the lists I moderate
(pgadmin-*, -slaves, webmaster, -www etc).

Regards, Dave.

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:17:52 -0800

Devrim,

> to use web interface for moderation issues, can use it.

Actually, I personally find the web interface for majordomo much easier to 
use than Mailman.   And I do both for pgfoundry and postgresql.org.  For 
one thing, the mailman interface has a tendency to force you to re-log-in 
repeatedly, which is really annoying.  Also, it has no way to do "discard 
all e-mails in moderation queue"; you *have* to do them one at a time.

No question the e-mail CLI for mailman is better though.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:32:23 -0500

Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]> writes:
>> others have already asked politely. Do I need to be rude?=20

> I think we should seriously consider moving to Mailman now.

Uh, how did you get from the one to the other?

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 00:34:14 +0200

Hello,

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 22:12 +0000, Dave Page wrote:
> Does it now?

Yes it does.

>  The only moderation emails I ever get from Mailman require me to
> click a link, whereas in mj2 I can reply with 'accept' after viewing
> the attached message. 

See the very bottom of the e-mail you get. Here is what I just received
about an e-mail to a list in liste.linux.org.tr 

     [ Part 3: "Included Message" ]

From: [email-masked]
Subject: confirm 84baftb2ec0a91d4a233c2b0720638701fa7887c

...

There is a text below this (what I had was Turkish, and I am too tired
and lazy now to translate it). You can either approve or disapprove
this.

Cheers,

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 00:35:49 +0200

Hi,

> Uh, how did you get from the one to the other? 

Heh :-)

"It would be easier (at least) for me to moderate the lists if we were
using mailman. I'd spend a few seconds to unsub this guy" . That was my
point.

Regards,

---

From: Larry Rosenman <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:37:00 -0600 (CST)

> all e-mails in moderation queue"; you *have* to do them one at a time.
Not true with 2.1.9 of Mailman.  You can "delete all marked as defer" now.

-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 512-248-2683                 E-Mail: [email-masked]
US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 01:03:37 +0200

Hi,

On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 14:17 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Also, it has no way to do "discard all e-mails in moderation queue";
> you *have* to do them one at a time.

It is doable via web interface, at least from version 2.1.5 that I know
of.

Cheers,

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:03:56 -0800

> all e-mails in moderation queue"; you *have* to do them one at a time.

Yes mailman is kind of a pain for that but honestly, if the only gripe
is that we need to enter a password more than once... we must really
consider how lazy we have become.

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:08:47 -0800

> (pgadmin-*, -slaves, webmaster, -www etc).

mailman does have an email interface. I just don't know much about it.

Joshua D. Drake

> Regards, Dave.
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
> 

--

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:38:35 -0800

> It is doable via web interface, at least from version 2.1.5 that I know

That is correct, it is entirely possible to clear the entire queue with
current versions of Mailman. It is also possible to place specific
instruction on each mail within the queue and process them all at once.

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 08:31:22 +0000

> consider how lazy we have become.

Try moderating on a PDA with on-screen keyboard for a few days then
consider that again.

/D

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:47:52 +0200

Hi,

> Try moderating on a PDA with on-screen keyboard for a few days then

I can administer your list, don't worry ;)

Still, you can use the e-mail interface...

Cheers,

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 08:56:01 +0000

> I can administer your list, don't worry ;)

There an offer I shouldn't refuse! Theres 8 or so lists iirc - that
oughta scare you off :-)

> Still, you can use the e-mail interface...

Yeah, thats what I do atm - even if I'm on a full size machine as I tend
to deal with them responsively when the moderator messages land in my
inbox. I rarely use the web interfaces - and never for moderation
(except with mailman installs that force me to).

/D

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:01:53 +0100

> consider how lazy we have become.

Well, the whole idea to switch came up this time for just that reason -
just a different kind of lazy that time.

I'm more concerned that we seem to be hitting a *lot* of bugs in mj2
that nobody else has seen, which tells me that not a lot of people are
using it. The mj2 stuff is obviously a lot less active than mailman. For
example, the only webpage I can fnid about it hasn't been updated in 7
years.
But obviously it *is* being maintained in some way, since Marc is in
contact with their people. But the question is how much...

//Magnus

---

From: Devrim GUNDUZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:04:19 +0200

Hi,

> There an offer I shouldn't refuse! Theres 8 or so lists iirc - that

I administrate ~70-80 lists using Mailman :) An additional 8-10 won't
hurt. ;)

> Yeah, thats what I do atm - even if I'm on a full size machine as I
> tend to deal with them responsively when the moderator messages land
> in my inbox. I rarely use the web interfaces - and never for
> moderation (except with mailman installs that force me to). 

So, AFAICS there is no problem left with you using mailman, right?

Cheers,

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 09:12:10 +0000

> I administrate ~70-80 lists using Mailman :) An additional 8-10 won't

70-80's gotta hurt, never mind 80-90!!

> So, AFAICS there is no problem left with you using mailman, right?

Not if the email interface works and doesn't require silly amounts of
typing. That's my only concern.

Regards, Dave.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:52:55 -0400

> I'm more concerned that we seem to be hitting a *lot* of bugs in mj2

Alot of bugs?  The only "bug" that I've recently seen concerned the multi-line 
subject, and if I had known that Alverre had talked about it with the mj2 
developers and got it fixed, I could have upgraded the code base ages ago ...

The issue with -announce, from what I was finally able to determine yesterday, 
a result of the spam filter(s) ... basically, Majordomo2 was trying to pump out 
23k messages through a mail server that then tried to process those 23k 
messages through MAIA ... I changed the configuration yesterday so that the 
outbound goes through a 'non-filtered' mail server only used for 'outbound 
messages', since everything should have been checked on the inbound ...

On top of that, in order to try and speed things up a bit, I've split the 
'gmail/hotmail/yahoo' addresses onto their own queues, since those three 
domains account for something like 50% of the over 23k subscribers to -announce 
... that way everyone else doesn't get backlogged in the queue behind them ...

> example, the only webpage I can fnid about it hasn't been updated in 7

What web site are you looking at?  We run Majordomo2, not Majordomo1 
(greatcircle) ... Majordomo1 was, as you state, dead years ago ... Majordomo2 
is still actively being developed, and the developers are as responsive to 
problems, well, as Tom is for PostgreSQL ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:56:31 -0400

What's his email address?

the only thing I can find is a [email-masked]' ... do you have anything on 
your end to confirm that that is, in fact, the right address?

- ----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 10:04:12 -0500

Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]> writes:
> using it.

I dunno about a lot of bugs --- it strikes me that we are just pickier
than average.  For instance Bruce's complaint about wrapped lines is
something that would just not ever come up in most contexts.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:09:04 +0100

> developers and got it fixed, I could have upgraded the code base ages ago ...

We keep having emails that are eaten by the lists. It may not be mj2s
fault in itself, but it's something with our setup, and I've repeatedly
heard people blame it on mj2... But if it's not mj2's fault, then let's
look at what else is wrong in the setup and fix that.

> ... that way everyone else doesn't get backlogged in the queue behind them ...

I thought outbound delivery was handled by postfix? Having it deliver
23k emails should be trivial.

> problems, well, as Tom is for PostgreSQL ...

I hit google for "majordomo 2" which comes up with mj2.org. 

Like I said, the developers appear to be responsive, but I fail to find
any kind of user community. Could be me not agreeing with google today :-)

(I have been looking for info on mj2 for a different project as well,
but had to rule it out comlpetely because I could find no documentation
and no information whatsoever on the web)

//Magnus

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:10:21 -0800

> something that would just not ever come up in most contexts.

I would agree with that, however there is another argument and that is
one of community.

Mailman is pretty much the defacto mailing list software out there. It
is used in extremely large installations including sites such as
SourceForge. It has an active community. Heck it even has a freenode
channel that people talk on.

There is a point, where it makes sense from a support and community
standpoint to move on.

Mj2 may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, except that I know of
no one that uses it but us, and had never even heard of it until we
brought out of its dying attic and mentioned its name.

Lastly, more and more people are mentioning moving to mailman for
management purposes. Yes there is the password issue, which is just one
of laziness more than anything. Other than that, I see no reason not to
move to Mailman.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:13:35 -0800

> 23k emails should be trivial.

Yes, it should.

> any kind of user community. Could be me not agreeing with google today :-)

mj2.org comes up for me, but as mha says it hasn't been updated in 7 years.

> and no information whatsoever on the web)

This is another problem. There should be complete documentation. Right
now... Marc is the only one that has any idea how the internals work.

That is incorrect for a project of this size. (PostgreSQL)

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:23:11 -0400

> something that would just not ever come up in most contexts.

Agreed ... it wasn't something that I had noticed as 'odd', since I've never 
really notice subjects that span'd multiple lines, so not having it didn't seem 
out of place ...

- ----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:33:34 -0400

- --On Tuesday, February 06, 2007 16:09:04 +0100 Magnus Hagander 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> Alot of bugs?  The only "bug" that I've recently seen concerned the
>> multi-line  subject, and if I had known that Alverre had talked about it
>> with the mj2  developers and got it fixed, I could have upgraded the code
>> base ages ago ...
>

If you have an idea on how to debug something like that, please let me know, 
I'm all ears ... everyone blamed it on the 'duplicate posting suppression' in 
Majordomo2, so we removed that ... personally, I think it was the wrong thing 
to do, since now I'm seeing a whack of duplicate postings being held up in the 
moderators queue for stuff that I know already went through ...

The only way that I can think of to 'track' missing emails is to try and track 
them through the mail log(s) ... but, we need to know the message-id of the 
sent email ... our log files for mail go back ~7 days, so we have a fair range 
of time to look back, but the closer to 'recent' the better ...

> 23k emails should be trivial.

it should be, but postfix is setup with a content_filter to send the email(s) 
through MAIA for virus/spam filtering, and the content_filter is both inbounce 
and outbound ... that is where it was getting backlogged, not in postfix itself 
...

> and no information whatsoever on the web)

I'll pass on your comment ... the documentation is 'internal', and very 
extensive (almost overwhelmingly so at times) ... but, did you check out 
<http://www.mj2.org/csf/> ... ewww, even those pages leave alot to be desired 
...

- ----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:35:15 -0400

> now... Marc is the only one that has any idea how the internals work.

Actually, anyone that installs Majordomo2, or has admin access to any of hte 
lists, has access to very complete and extensive documentation ...

- ----

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:39:35 +0000

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
> everyone blamed it on the 'duplicate posting suppression' in

No, we were *definitely* losing posts because of the filter - some of my
own messages were getting lost and generating the bounce emails you setup.

I can't say I'm seeing dups on the lists I moderate though...

/D

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:42:11 +0000

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> 
> --On Tuesday, February 06, 2007 07:13:35 -0800 "Joshua D. Drake" 

That much is true - the web interface is fully documented. Which does
make the pages more cluttered, but it's definitely there!

/D

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:01:58 -0500

> channel that people talk on.

Uh.  MySQL is pretty much the _de facto_ free DBMS out there.  It is
used in extremely large installations, including sites such as
Slashdot.  It is also supported by Oracle.  It has an active
community, and a company behind it.

I don't think this style of argument is one I'm going to buy.

> of laziness more than anything. Other than that, I see no reason not to

One reason I can think is that I've had mailman installations brought
to their knees by high volumes of mail.  At a previous site where we
used it and mj, I never had that happen with mj.  I dunno about mj2.

A

-- 
Andrew Sullivan  | [email-masked]
This work was visionary and imaginative, and goes to show that visionary
and imaginative work need not end up well. 
		--Dennis Ritchie

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:31:47 -0500 (EST)

> something that would just not ever come up in most contexts.

I will take that as a compliment.  :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian   [email-masked]
  Homepage        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB    http://www.enterprisedb.com
  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:03:34 -0500 (EST)

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> 

This explains why message delivery would be slow, but not stuck.

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:24:11 +0100

> and outbound ... that is where it was getting backlogged, not in postfix itself 

Given this, and many other comments, the first thing I would do is to
decouple the lists from the hub.org mail infrastructure. Lists have very
different requirements from "normal mailboxes" in my experience, and
should have a dedicated path. That will also make things easier to track.
Put up a dedicated system (VM) for it. That will make everything easier.

> <http://www.mj2.org/csf/> ... ewww, even those pages leave alot to be desired 

I actually found that page as well before. It's got updates until
2004... (and the whole page is labeled, on the front page, as being old
information..)
So yeah, they definitely have some work to do there.

//Magnus

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:11:52 -0500

> your end to confirm that that is, in fact, the right address?

It's definitely sri.ca, see attached bounce I just got.

			regards, tom lane

------- Forwarded Message

Delivery-Date: Tue Feb  6 22:09:12 2007
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 22:09:09 -0500
Subject: NDN: Re: [PERFORM] How long should it take to insert 200,000 records?
To: "Tom Lane" <[email-masked]>
From: Post.Office

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

----=_--075f9a54.075f9a53.c1eef355
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

----=_--075f9a54.075f9a53.c1eef355
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<?xml version=3D=221.0=22 encoding=3D=22ISO-8859-1=22?>
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D=22Content-Type=22 content=3D=22text/html; charset=3DISO=
-8859-1=22 />
<title></title>
<style type=3D=22text/css=22>
<=21--
body=7Bmargin-left:10px;margin-right:10px;margin-top:10px;margin-bottom:10p=
x;=7D
-->
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<font face=3D=22Geneva=22 size=3D=22+0=22 color=3D=22=23000000=22 style=3D=
=22font-family:Geneva;font-size:10pt;color:=23000000;=22>Sorry. Your messag=
e could not be delivered to:<br />
<br />
Martin Chayer (Mailbox or Conference is full.)<br />
</font>
</body>
</html>

----=_--075f9a54.075f9a53.c1eef355--

------- End of Forwarded Message

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 23:56:46 -0400

Thanks, and removed ...

- --On Tuesday, February 06, 2007 22:11:52 -0500 Tom Lane <[email-masked]> 
wrote:

> Return-Path: MAILER-DAEMON
> Received: from mail.sri.ca (mail.sri.ca [38.112.105.80])
> 	by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l1739Ber029401
> 	for <[email-masked]>; Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:09:11 -0500 (EST)
> Message-id: <[email-masked]>
> X-Mailer: FirstClass 8.3 (build 8.278)
> X-FC-Icon-ID: 2031
> X-FC-SERVER-TZ: 15729388
> X-FC-MachineGenerated: true
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="--=_--075f9a54.075f9a53.c1eef355"
>

- ----

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 00:26:01 -0000

> now... Marc is the only one that has any idea how the internals work.

Actually, I've got a pretty good idea of things too.

Majordomo allows me to view many mailing lists on one page, with a single
line for each one. Mailman has nothing close (that I know of): not only
is every mailing list in Mailman a separate login and page, but every
message is a large ugly table. Kind of sucks when you've got hundreds
of messages to wade through over many lists. If we ever did go to Mailman,
I might have to actually make it better, even though it's written in
Python.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200702071900
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8