Subject: [whine] Slow moderation on postgres lists

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 01:17:28 -0400

I thought we had things set up so that there were multiple people
moderating the postgres mail lists, but it seems like the average time
to approve postings from unsubscribed folk has slid back down to the
two-or-three-day range :-(.  What can be done to improve that?  Maybe
recruit a few more moderators?

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Devrim GÜNDÜZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:38:15 +0300

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 01:17 -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> Maybe recruit a few more moderators? 

I have already volunteered for that. Just a reminder.

Regards,
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: "Magnus Hagander" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 07:57:46 +0200

> recruit a few more moderators?

I also think we have different sets of moderators for different lists, because some seen to have better response times. But I could be mistaken on that since 
I've made no actual check on that ;) I've asked for a list of who moderates what to be documented somewhere, but nothing yet. That would be a good starting 
point to see if we need more moderators.

I've also had a commit message moderated because it contained the c word that is in c-handler. Apart from having that approved, I think that specific check is 
stupid and should be removed. If possible, all checks on commit messages should be excluded.

/Magnus

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:15:26 -0400

> stupid and should be removed. If possible, all checks on commit messages should be excluded.

Yeah, some closer attention to the filter patterns would be good too.
One of the things that got me ticked off today was having several
messages blocked because they contained "cansel" (deliberately
misspeeled here to avoid triggering that filter again), in the middle of
the line several lines down.  I can see the argument for filtering
messages that have that word as the *first* in the body, but not like
this.  It's a perfectly useful and indeed fairly important word for
technical discussions.  I've been bit similarly in the past by other
filters that seemed overly loose...

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Magnus Hagander" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:42:35 +0200

> misspeeled here to avoid triggering that filter again), in the middle of

That's the c word I was talking about, if that wasn't clear for everyone. 

/Magnus

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:43:06 +0100

> recruit a few more moderators?

Which lists are slow? I tend to moderate in real time whilst I'm awake,
or at least the next time I check my mail when not (which is invariably
only a few hours away). I can probably add another couple to my list if
that would help.

Regards, Dave

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:27:02 +0200

> only a few hours away). I can probably add another couple to my list if

In my case, -patches and -committers. Looking at the thread I *think* Tom
was referring to, also -hackers.

(I did bug you about -patches and -committers, which you said you couldn't
do :-P)

//Magnus

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 09:03:40 -0400

> only a few hours away). I can probably add another couple to my list if

What do people use to moderate?  Are there any scripts to help or
something?  I've seen people wasting time hitting reply, writing
"accept", etc, which consumes a lot of time.  (FWIW I do have a script,
which currently only works for pgsql-es-ayuda but I think it could be
easily generalized).

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:07:55 -0000

> recruit a few more moderators?

Or allow the existing moderators to control more lists; for the ones that 
I moderate, I usually clear them out at least once a day.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200704110903
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:09:37 +0100

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> "accept", etc, which consumes a lot of time.  

That's what I do - it takes a couple of seconds each for the dozen or so
approvals I do on 6 or so of our lists per day.

Regards, Dave.

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:26:22 -0400

Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]> writes:
>> Which lists are slow?

> was referring to, also -hackers.

At the time I was particularly concerned about -hackers and -bugs, but
I'm not sure which lists have the issue overall.  I regularly notice
batches of two-or-three-day-old messages being released together,
perhaps several times a week, and hadn't paid any particular attention
to which lists they were on.  I file all the PG lists I read (which is
most of them) into one folder, so it all kinda blurs together ... but
I think -bugs is in need of more attention because it's particularly
likely to get submissions from non-subscribers.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:30:47 -0300

I checked both of those last night when you reported it ... there was one spam 
in -bugs and a few from Kris Kennedy in -hackers, but that was it ...

- --On Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:26:22 -0400 Tom Lane <[email-masked]> 
wrote:

> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:09:51 +0200

> in -bugs and a few from Kris Kennedy in -hackers, but that was it ...

Interesting. Any clue on where my post to -patches went? I got a mail from
majordom saying it was held, but it was never passed through. (the one on
committers came through around that time, so I assume you went through that
one as well?)

Also, to repeat that request, could you stick a list of who is moderator of
what on pmt, for reference?

//Magnus

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 12:10:15 -0400

> in -bugs and a few from Kris Kennedy in -hackers, but that was it ...

I think the problem is that it shouldn't just be checked when somebody
complains, but on a periodical basis.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:28:21 -0300

- --On Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:10:15 -0400 Alvaro Herrera 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> I checked both of those last night when you reported it ... there was one
>> spam  in -bugs and a few from Kris Kennedy in -hackers, but that was it ...
>

My point was that obviously someone has been checking, since there was only a 
couple in -hackers that were <24hr old, and -bugs had nothing but one spam ...

- ----

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:31:42 -0400

> Interesting. Any clue on where my post to -patches went?

Also, there should have been at least one -hackers post from Maxime
Henrion of freebsd.org ...

			regards, tom lane

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:40:33 -0300

I'll let you add it to pmt, but here is what we have right now, beyond myself:

pgsql-announce:
	[email-masked]
	[email-masked]

pgsql-performance:
	[email-masked]

which is really odd, as I swore we had ppl for -general and -hackers, also, but 
apparently not ...

so, who wanted to volunteer for what again?  email me offlist, but we currently 
have:

pgsql-admin
pgsql-advocacy
pgsql-benchmarks
pgsql-bugs
pgsql-chat
pgsql-committers
pgsql-core
pgsql-cygwin
pgsql-docs
pgsql-general
pgsql-hackers
pgsql-interfaces
pgsql-jdbc
pgsql-jobs
pgsql-novice
pgsql-odbc
pgsql-patches
pgsql-php
pgsql-ports
pgsql-sql

Now, in some cases, the 'list owner' is different then me (ie. pgsql-advocacy 
is owned by JoshB), but even in that case, a backup moderator would be nice ...

- ----

---

From: "Greg Sabino Mullane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 18:27:45 -0000

> which is really odd, as I swore we had ppl for -general and -hackers, 
> also, but apparently not ...

Alas, I toil in obscurity. I do announce, general, hackers, interfaces, 
and bugs very regularly. Based on the amount of messages that build up 
if I miss a day, I think I am really the only one actively moderating 
them (except announce), although it looks like someone has been helping 
out a bit lately, especially on hackers.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane [email-masked]
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200704111422
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:48:06 -0400

I am willing to moderate any of these lists anyone wants me to
moderate.  I promise to do this every weekday at [insert daytime
here, Eastern time], subject to vacations and local holidays.  Will
that help?

A

On Wed, Apr 11, 2007 at 02:40:33PM -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD)
> 
> iD8DBQFGHR2R4QvfyHIvDvMRAkzwAJoCAa9CcREy71/gSv/yA4Rsfm9bawCgl8q2
> NLPoB7wXbtR9D6+NYsOjqz4=
> =VBHt
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at
> 
>                 http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

-- 
Andrew Sullivan  | [email-masked]
In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism. 
                --Brad Holland

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:08:56 -0300 (ADT)

'k, I'll add you in and send you details ... use [email-masked] as 
address?

----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:10:26 -0300 (ADT)

Odd ... can you email me the passwd you have been using, and I'll set it 
up a bit better on this end so that I see you listed in the config file? I 
suspect you  have the 'masterpasswd' for those lists, instead of having 
you setup as a seperate admin ...

----

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

> Hash: RIPEMD160
> iD8DBQFGHSeVvJuQZxSWSsgRAyM3AJ9RLbeP7htzv4Dp5W+CphBGmohLJQCfWXHs
> Em7RSUKITwSJTAW6JOwypqg=
> =1h3q
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:05:15 -0400

> 'k, I'll add you in and send you details ... use [email-masked] as 

Sure.  People should tell me what lists they want done and what time,
too.

A
-- 
Andrew Sullivan  | [email-masked]
When my information changes, I alter my conclusions.  What do you do sir?
		--attr. John Maynard Keynes

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:53:32 +0200

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> up a bit better on this end so that I see you listed in the config file?
> I suspect you  have the 'masterpasswd' for those lists, instead of
> having you setup as a seperate admin ...

Just to make sure - when you have this sorted, we'll get an updated list
of moderators to stick on pmt, right? ;)

//Magnus

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:20:39 -0300

I login to the web interface, as 'ALL' (so all lists are presented), then 
middle click on the posting itself so that it opens it in a new tab, and 
quickly go through an approve all the ones that need to be approved, skipping 
then ones that don't ... then i Use the 'select all' checkbox and 
'reject-quiet' all the rest (minus the subscribe/unsubscribe requests, which 
just sit in the queue to expire or be accepted by the subscriber) ...

I don't do anything via email ... much too slow / painful ...

- --On Wednesday, April 11, 2007 09:03:40 -0400 Alvaro Herrera 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match

- ----

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:25:15 -0400

> just sit in the queue to expire or be accepted by the subscriber) ...

Ouch, I tried this in the past and found it really annoying.

> I don't do anything via email ... much too slow / painful ...

Yeah, I take exactly two seconds for each email.  No browser, no
nothing, just a single keypress for each moderation request.  Way too slow.

Now I understand why Greg talked about the need to "run the moderation
on his own schedule".  If you're gonna take fifteen minutes to do it,
sure, you don't want to interrupt your normal email flow.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:32:00 -0300

Andrew Sullivan is added to the following lists:

       pgsql-admin
       pgsql-advocacy
       pgsql-announce
       pgsql-hackers
       pgsql-jobs

- --On Friday, April 13, 2007 21:53:32 +0200 Magnus Hagander 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend

- ----

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:40:11 +0200

> Andrew Sullivan is added to the following lists:

Ok. I've updated the pmt with what info we have had confirmed from Marc,
which is right now:
pgsql-admin	Andrew Sullivan
pgsql-advocacy	Andrew Sullivan
pgsql-announce	Andrew Sullivan, Robert Treat, Greg Sabino Mullane
pgsql-hackers	Andrew Sullivan
pgsql-jobs	Andrew Sullivan
pgsql-performance	Josh Berkus

Everything else moderated only by Marc.

Marc, please update that once you have confirmed what/how Greg is doing
other moderation, and other such things.

//Magnus

---

From: Kris Jurka <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:35:04 -0400 (EDT)

> Everything else moderated only by Marc.

I moderate pgsql-jdbc.

Kris Jurka

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:46:41 -0300

>> Everything else moderated only by Marc.

Actually, you own pgsql-jdbc ... are you able to keep up okay on that, or do 
you want to add someone else to help out?

- ----

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:51:33 -0400

> pgsql-performance	Josh Berkus

ISTR being told I was set up to handle -announce, -jobs, and -advocacy, 
and -press (iirc) at various times or another, but I've not been able to get 
access for a few months now.... if people want me to work on those or others, 
I probably need to get my credentials re-set and re-sent. 

-- 
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Kris Jurka <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 10:57:31 -0400 (EDT)

> you want to add someone else to help out?

I don't have any problems with moderating.  I just thought we were 
assembling a master list so I figured I'd add it.

Kris Jurka

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:06:45 -0300

Granted, but you should be added as 'owner', not 'moderator' ... its a small 
distinction ..

- --On Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:57:31 -0400 Kris Jurka <[email-masked]> 
wrote:

> I don't have any problems with moderating.  I just thought we were assembling
> a master list so I figured I'd add it.
>
> Kris Jurka

- ----

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:25:49 +0200

> Granted, but you should be added as 'owner', not 'moderator' ... its a small 

Can you provide pmt with a list of lists that have owners other than
yourself?

//Magnus

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 08:31:34 -0700

> Can you provide pmt with a list of lists that have owners other than

Even better would be a *complete* contact list of people who have access 
to what with the mailing lists.

-- 

       === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
              http://www.commandprompt.com/

Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 17:41:11 +0200

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Magnus Hagander wrote:
>> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>> Granted, but you should be added as 'owner', not 'moderator' ... its
>>> a small distinction ..
>>

That's what I'm trying for here, one piece at a time.

//Magnus

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:16:32 -0300

'k, here are the list owners ... lists not listed default to me .. a few lists 
aren't active anymore, so trim accordingly:

configset pgsql-advocacy owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-de-allgemein owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-es-ayuda owners <<ENDAAB
"Alvaro Herrera" <[email-masked]>
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-fr-generale owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-hackers-win32 owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-jdbc owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-nl-algemeen owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-performance owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-ru-general owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-slavestothewww owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-slony2 owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-students owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-techdocs owners <<ENDAAB
Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-tr-genel owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-www owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-www-advocacy owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-www-jobs owners <<ENDAAB
[email-masked]
ENDAAB

- --On Saturday, April 14, 2007 17:41:11 +0200 Magnus Hagander 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
>        subscribe-nomail command to [email-masked] so that your
>        message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

- ----

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:19:51 -0300

And here is the current list of moderators, but, as Greg pointed out, this 
isn't 100% accurate, but will be working on that this weekend ...

configset pgsql-admin passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-advocacy passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-announce passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-bugs passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-hackers passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-jobs passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

configset pgsql-performance passwords <<ENDAAB
| ALL | [email-masked]
ENDAAB

- ----

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 13:06:40 +0200

> isn't 100% accurate, but will be working on that this weekend ...

Ok. As I'm sure you've noticed I didn't update based on that, since it
wasn't complete. Please update the PMT page when you have the complete list
- and let us know when yuo've done it.

//Magnus

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:06:57 -0400

On Saturday 14 April 2007 14:16, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 'k, here are the list owners ... lists not listed default to me .. a few
> lists aren't active anymore, so trim accordingly:
>
<snip>

Marc, I'm a little confused as I did not see myself set up as owner or 
moderator of -press, but I can several press-owner type emails a day 
delievered to me... is there some other association going on there?

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:32:03 -0300

The list I sent you was 100% accurate based on the config files ... in some 
cases (ie. Greg), it looks like master passwd was provided, instead of setting 
up as an individual password ... its that that I have to work on fixing ... 
greg can still moderate as things are now, he's just not explicitly listed in 
the config files ...

- --On Friday, April 20, 2007 13:06:40 +0200 Magnus Hagander 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
>                http://archives.postgresql.org

- ----

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:39:36 -0400

> greg can still moderate as things are now, he's just not explicitly listed in 

BTW did you add me as moderator for the lists I mentioned?

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 20:43:26 +0200

>>> isn't 100% accurate, but will be working on that this weekend ...

So I wanted to wait until that work was done. Either way - whenever
you're done, please write it down on the pmt page so it's up to date.
(I'm sure it could do with some other details as well - you'll know what
better than me)

//Magnus

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> --On Friday, April 20, 2007 13:06:40 +0200 Magnus Hagander

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 12:40:00 -0700

> greg can still moderate as things are now, he's just not explicitly listed in 

I think what Magnus is trying to do is make sure that all admins are 
adhering to the same standards, which is, in this case to use pmt to 
document this type of stuff.

Marc do you not have a log in to pmt? Is your account not working?

Joshua D. Drake

> iD8DBQFGKQcj4QvfyHIvDvMRAnUBAKCbahziQgX0eByE15bpKj/u+fdwiACfTVzU
> NzP2+dLG7iACG6af3dAL9rA=
> =XzFN

--

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 20:17:39 +0200

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
> The list I sent you was 100% accurate based on the config files ... in
> some cases (ie. Greg), it looks like master passwd was provided,
> instead of setting up as an individual password ... its that that I
> have to work on fixing ... greg can still moderate as things are now,
> he's just not explicitly listed in the config files ...
> 

That was indeed it, and I'm still missing this documentation on pmt. Can
we get an update there, please?

//Magnus