Subject: Re: Training events policy ... first test case

From: "Magnus Hagander" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:40:35 +0200

> > Also, given enough companies and bad scheduling luck, you can
> > always get bumped off the main page, so I think we should approve them
> > all.
> 
> They problem is that we *know* we have companies who are scheduling 
> training sessions which will never be held, in order to keep their names 
> in that "top 3".  Maybe we need to revisit how training events are listed 
> on the home page?

If we _know_ they do this why don't we put a clear policy on what's allowed (which we should do anyway) and if they break that we limit them to _zero_ posts for a couple of months until they start complying?

Unrelated, we could change the frontpage to only show the first event per company. The rest would only be listed on the details page.

/Magnus

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:56:35 -0700

Magnus,

> Unrelated, we could change the frontpage to only show the first event per
> company. The rest would only be listed on the details page.

That's a great idea!

What about also making the representation of training events more compact?  
Currently we have a fairly space-consumptive layout:

2007-10-22 – 2007-10-26
PostgreSQL Administration Boot Camp
(Morrisville, NC, United States)

2007-11-13 – 2007-11-15
PostgreSQL Database Implementation, Management, and Tuning
(London, United Kingdom)

2007-11-12 – 2007-11-16
Intense PostgreSQL Training (Certification Available)
(Ontario, CA, United States) 

What if we did:

Upcoming Training

PostgreSQL Administration ... 2007-10-22
PostgreSQL Database Implem ...2007-11-13
Intense PostgreSQL Trainin ...2007-11-12
PostgreSQL Tuning & Perfor ...2007-12-01
etc. ...

With all links actually going to:
http://www.postgresql.org/about/eventarchive#training
(yes, we'd have to create that header link)

That would make the fighting for the "top 3" spot less intense.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

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From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:10:19 -0300

> Currently we have a fairly space-consumptive layout:

I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not State/Province 
... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow tired of clicking through if 
the result is always something in the US, when all that really interests them 
are stuff in the UK ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:08:12 -0700

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:10:19 -0300
"Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I think you need *at least* Country in there somewhere, if not
> State/Province ... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow tired
> of clicking through if the result is always something in the US, when
> all that really interests them are stuff in the UK ...

Country and State/Province.

Joshua D. Drake

> 
> - ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org) Email .
> [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
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---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:51:28 -0700

Folks,

> Country and State/Province.

Hmmm, let's stay on target here.  What I'm trying to do is to make those "top 
3" spots less valuable so that training providers won't fight over them.  
That is, so list enough on the home page to make people realize training 
exists, but have all links go to the full training listings.

Right now the issue is that training events get something like 1000 views a 
week while their on the home page, and < 100 views a week otherwise.  That's 
enough of a difference to make providers manipulate the listings a bit.  

So, I'd be happy with this as well:

USA, Atlanta ... 2007-10-22
USA, Edison ...2007-11-13
UK, London ...2007-11-12
Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01
etc.

I *don't* buy the argument that "we can trust EDB so they're exempt from the 
restrictions we level on other providers," since we don't seem to have cut 
OTG any slack whatsoever despite their contributions.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:14:44 -0700

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:51:28 -0700
Josh Berkus <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > > State/Province ... ppl outside the US, for instance, might grow
> > > tired of clicking through if the result is always something in
> > > the US, when all that really interests them are stuff in the
> > > UK ...
> >
> Hmmm, let's stay on target here.  What I'm trying to do is to make
> those "top 3" spots less valuable so that training providers won't
> fight over them. That is, so list enough on the home page to make
> people realize training exists, but have all links go to the full
> training listings.

I believe we are. I agree with what you are trying to do, but I also
don't think providing unnecessary clicks to our community helps us any.
> 
> Right now the issue is that training events get something like 1000
> views a week while their on the home page, and < 100 views a week
> otherwise.  That's enough of a difference to make providers
> manipulate the listings a bit.  

Certainly.

> Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01

Hmm I like that. I guess it depends on how much room we have on the
page for such a thing. One thought would be to swap LATEST NEWS for
UPCOMING TRAINING. 

That would give more room to what is likely our most sought after
information on the front page.

> 
> I *don't* buy the argument that "we can trust EDB so they're exempt
> from the restrictions we level on other providers," since we don't
> seem to have cut OTG any slack whatsoever despite their contributions.

I believe that we should not trust *any* company that is submitting
their news through a PR firm. PR firms, lie, on purpose, for profit.
They make money on manipulation, not truth or substance.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:30:23 +0200

> information on the front page.

I don't like that part :-)

> They make money on manipulation, not truth or substance.

Why does it matter how they're submitting it? Plus, we're talking
events, not news here.

But if we have a policy, *everybody* should be treated the same way
against it. Including edb, and including cmd if that would become an
issue. The only exception that would be reasonable is if there was a
completely community-driven not-for-profit training event, IMHO.

//Magnus

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:37:28 -0700

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:30:23 +0200

> I don't like that part :-)

Well I am not suggesting removing news. I think that would be bad.

> completely community-driven not-for-profit training event, IMHO.

I did say *any*. Everyone should be treated fairly (although I believe
that contributors should get first billing but that is a different
thread).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:01:37 -0300

- --On Wednesday, October 24, 2007 10:51:28 -0700 Josh Berkus
<[email-masked]> 

> Sao Paulo, Brazil ...2007-12-01

I like this one ... shows that training can be found around the world ...

- ----

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:26:27 +0200

> people realize training exists, but have all links go to the full

I suggest removing the top 3 items from the home page and put the 
complete listing on a different page altogether.  A link 
called "Training" should be obvious enough.  In reality, the training 
that happens now or next week shouldn't really interest anyone.  
Attending that sort of stuff is planned months in advance.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:58:20 -0700

Peter, All,

> Attending that sort of stuff is planned months in advance.

I think this makes sense.  It certainly would be the easiest way to fix 
things.

-- 
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: Simon Riggs <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:52:15 +0000

> I like this one ... shows that training can be found around the world ...

Not sure about that. It assumes people are more interested in location
than they are about content. People used to do "training", but now the
range of available classes is increasing and not all training is the
same, so the short description is essential, the location is not.

The main issue seems to be that there are only 3 slots.

We're wasting loads of space elsewhere on the home page and we should
make better use of that. Or, as Magnus suggested way back, have the main
page scroll down the page further.

Things are pretty much the same with blogs. People writing one line
blogs to force other people's names off the list. 

Maybe we need some kind of regionalisation, randomisation or click-thru
oriented prioritisation. Good blogs stay higher, longer etc..

-- 
  Simon Riggs
  2ndQuadrant  http://www.2ndQuadrant.com

---

From: Chander Ganesan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 12:31:33 -0400

Hello,

> I think this makes sense.  It certainly would be the easiest way to fix 
Actually, I think that its not unusual for us to see a few enrollments 
the week before a class...  so listing classes that are "next week" is a 
good idea - i'm sure this is a trend seen by all training companies.... 

For us, this becomes even more attractive to companies that decide on 
last minute training but wouldn't otherwise go but for the cost of last 
minute travel.  In our case, we offer an "all inclusive" package, that 
we usually  honor up until the day before a class (assuming there is 
space in the class). 

Showing classes that are currently occurring doesn't seem like a good 
idea since its too late to enroll.  However, it's not uncommon for a 
course starting next week to not make it to the homepage until the week 
it starts...and for that to drive some last minute enrollments.

just my 2 cents.

-- 
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC  27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com