Message-ID: <511D4E61.5050808@kaltenbrunner.cc>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:51:45 +0100
From: Stefan Kaltenbrunner <stefan@kaltenbrunner.cc>
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To: Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
CC: Christoph Berg <myon@debian.org>, Martin Pitt <mpitt@debian.org>,
	Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net>,
	PostgreSQL WWW <pgsql-www@postgresql.org>,
	PostgreSQL in Debian <pgsql-pkg-debian@postgresql.org>,
	Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Subject: Re: Re: [pgsql-www] We should not transition to
	apt.postgresql.org until we have a PPA
References: <20130214122643.GF30046@msgid.df7cb.de>
	<511D2E58.6010705@agliodbs.com>
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On 02/14/2013 07:35 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> (1) Issue with instructions on Ubuntu 12.04
> 
> 1. install the key using the wget command.

and that is a problem?

> 
> 2. there is no pgdg.list file to edit, per instructions.  Nor, for that
> matter, is there a pgdg.pref file.  If the instructions mean *create*
> these files from scratch, they should say that.

"edit" in my interpretation of the phrasing there includes creating the
file - if you have a better wording to suggest please provide a patch...

> 
> ===========
> 
> (2) Problem with general process
> 
> The instructions expressed on the page involve 6 steps, three of which
> require editing text files with persnickety syntax, thus requiring an
> intimate knowledge of Debian packaging, and mapping your numerical
> release number to the "cute" release names, and rearranging lines of a
> large complex system-generated file, and messing with repository keys.


not sure what the "intimitate knowledge requirement" here is - pasting
exactly the strings proposed is enough and there is not a single
requirement on understanding debian packaging, though i have to admit
that NOT understanding it is kinda a sign that you should not have root
on the debian based box you are on and you are an admin for.

> 
> Frankly, installing PostgreSQL from source will be easier than following
> those instructions.  It represents a return to "PostgreSQL is hard to
> install" for Ubuntu users.

I very much doubt that - because just for a starter getting all the
build requirements on a typical ubuntu box in place is way more complex
than following the very trival steps on the above mentioned docs

> 
> Compare this to the simple and largely infallable sequence for
> installing the PPA:
> 
> 1. apt-get install python-software-properties
> 2. add-apt-repository ppa:pitti/postgresql
> 3. apt-get update
> 4. apt-get install postgresql-9.2

I completely fail to see how that is fundamentally different from the
docs that we have now (not saying they cannot be improved) - once you
have decided that an external package source is ok, the actual 30s or
45s you need to invest to make that true does not matter at all.


> 
> That's *it*.  No text files to edit, no keys to mess with, no finicky
> syntax to learn.  Just four commands which can be put in a simple shell
> script and deployed across a dozen servers, thanks to Martin's good work.
> 
> The new process represents a 20X increase in sysadmin time to install
> PostgreSQL on a server.  This will result in less PostgresQL
> installations.  Do we really want that?

I really think you need to step back a bit - editing a textfile or two
vs typing a few lines on the commandline is hardly a 20x increase in
sysadmin time. And even if it would be 5s(ppa) vs 100s(what we have now)
for the first install that is not even measurable noise in any deployment.


> 
> Alternately, Martin, this will mean (for our professional clients)
> switching from Ubuntu to Red Hat/Fedora, just because it's easier to
> maintain PostgreSQL there.

so a hypothetical 5s vs 100s issue combined with the fact that 'not
understanding how the packaging system on the OS I rely on and that I
have deployed on "dozends of servers" works' will make them switch their
entire platform to a different distribution?


Stefan


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