Subject: New email list for emergency communications

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT)

[ BCC to core.]

Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
email infrastructure isn't working.

Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
for communication in such situations.  It is called:

	[email-masked]

I envision this as an email list that will allow more rapid recovery
during email outages.  I know many use IRC in such cases but this allows
notification.  Also some don't use IRC.

Anyone can post to the email list. There is no moderation, though the
list sits behind my spam filters.  The list will not be archived.

If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately.  I think it is
particularly important for infrastructure managers to be subscribed to
this list.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <[email-masked]>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

  + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:35:17 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT)

> email infrastructure isn't working.

Yes there is.

jabber.postgresql.org
irc.freenode.net
direct email

Not to mention how many other services people are using with buddy
lists? :P

> during email outages.  I know many use IRC in such cases but this
> allows notification.  Also some don't use IRC.
> 

Everyone in the know uses one of:

gtalk
yahoo
irc
jabber

> If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately.  I think it
> is particularly important for infrastructure managers to be
> subscribed to this list.

I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
redundant.

This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake 

- -- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:36:55 -0400 (EDT)

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 

I think we need something more centralized, and with chat you have to
know to look there for problems.  I think we need something that
allows people to notify us if there is a problem.

> attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

Again, see above.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:44:22 -0300 (ADT)

> attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with Joshua 
here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal domain (which, 
in itself is a failure point as it requires that *his* domain is not 100% 
perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone actually has to *use* it ... I know 
I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact 
methods ...

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:46:22 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:36:55 -0400 (EDT)

> allows people to notify us if there is a problem.

We are attacking the wrong problem. 99% of the time we know when
there is a problem. I leave the 1% only because we aren't perfect.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT)

> I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact 

I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now. 
Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
community email is down).  The email list was a method to centralize
that.  The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:48:36 -0400 (EDT)

> there is a problem. I leave the 1% only because we aren't perfect.

Well, I certainly don't until I realize I haven't received email, nor do
I know who is working on it.  Right now the emergency communication
system is ad-hock.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:51:19 -0300

> that.  The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?

-- 
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT)

> Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?

What does that do for me that my existing jabber account does not?

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:53:26 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with
> > Joshua here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal
> > domain (which, in itself is a failure point as it requires that
> > *his* domain is not 100% perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone
> > actually has to *use* it ... I know I never will, since there
> > already exist faster, more reliable, contact methods ...
> 

This comes back to defining teams which is already being discussed in
another thread. The people that need to be contacted are the sysadmins
team but we need to know how. Right now, the only people that know how
to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins team :P. 

As I said previously, we are attacking the wrong problem. The problem
is not detection (although it could be improved), the problem is not
communication (see my 99% remark). 

The problem is one of complexity of environment and resources to manage
that environment. This is already being addressed on the sysadmins list
and I expect that it will be resolved within 2 weeks. Does that sound
about right Marc?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:54:02 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:51:19 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact
> > (because community email is down).  The email list was a method to
> > centralize that.  The list of possible contact methods listed
> > confirms my point.
> 

That seems reasonable.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:54:38 -0400 (EDT)

> to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins team :P. 

My big point is if the sysadmins team is hosted by the postgresql.org
domain, how do we communicate with them when postgresql.org email is
down?

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:57:14 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT)

> What does that do for me that my existing jabber account does not?

Your jabber account can not talk to [email-masked] when
there is a problem with archives. Marc should really be on it too but
besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:57:36 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:54:38 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > This comes back to defining teams which is already being discussed
> > in another thread. The people that need to be contacted are the
> > sysadmins team but we need to know how. Right now, the only people
> > that know how to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins
> > team :P. 
> 

See point about jabber.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:57:39 -0400 (EDT)

> besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

OK, sign me up (time for another Pidgin account).

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:34:57 +0100

> particularly important for infrastructure managers to be subscribed to

There is one for sysadmins already. Every email on sysadmins has "If the 
PostgreSQL.org mailing lists are down, use the auxillary list 
[email-masked] "

I'm nto sure if that one is synced automatically though. Josh?

//Magnus

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:48:48 +0000

>        [email-masked]

Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk

---

From: Stefan Kaltenbrunner <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:53:22 +0100

> that.  The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

the sysadmin team already maintains a list of emergency contacts 
including external email, phone numbers, alternative contacts in 
addition to the what we are usually using to communicate (IM,personal 
email, the lists) - not sure if we need to duplicate that ...

Stefan

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:59:41 -0400 (EDT)

> Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.

Oh, I didn't know.  Email list removed.

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:31:53 -0400

> I know who is working on it.  Right now the emergency communication

So the solution you propose does not solve the problem you think you have
-- i.e. that in the event there is a failure, the community doesn't know it.

Would a health check system that updated web pages based on the monitor
status help?  (Hint: I think the monitors are already in place.  What we
need is some additional ways of accessing that data, I guess.)

A

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:33:32 -0400

> OK, sign me up (time for another Pidgin account).

You shouldn't need more than one account -- jabber should allow
authentication against any jabber server.

A

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 10:37:42 -0700

Dave,

> Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.

Where is that list?  I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no 
traffic ...

--Josh

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:38:48 -0400 (EDT)

> need is some additional ways of accessing that data, I guess.)

Personally, I would love to get an email when the community email system
isn't working, and status while it is being worked on.  I assume others
would like to as well, so I don't go reporting/contacting people when
things are already being worked on.

Right now, when email is down, I just start IM'ing people.  A more
structured system would help me.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:39:07 -0400 (EDT)

> authentication against any jabber server.

I am told our jabber system is private.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:39:59 -0400 (EDT)

> Where is that list?  I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no 

Read later in the thread.  It is at agliodbs.com (your domain).

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:44:05 -0400

> I am told our jabber system is private.

That's a pity.  It dramatically reduces the utility of the system, and I've
yet to hear a justification for it in any installation I've seen.

A

---

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:52:37 +0000

> Where is that list?  I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no

[email-masked]

And no, I don't think it's ever been used because in the event of
major problems Magnus, Stefan and I communicate via MSN, Jabber, email
or phone - and when Marc is needed and is asleep (which tends to be
the case at the time when things generally seem to go wrong), we page
him.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:54:18 -0300

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> That's a pity.  It dramatically reduces the utility of the system, and
> I've yet to hear a justification for it in any installation I've seen.

Agreed.  It would be very nice if it were a usable system for the
outside world.

---

From: Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:31:16 +0100

> Agreed.  It would be very nice if it were a usable system for the

Yes, i was asked more than once by ppl using a Google talk account.
Would be nice to have them added without adding another account in
pidgin.

Kind regards

-- 
				Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group

---

From: Stefan Kaltenbrunner <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:51:17 +0100

> things are already being worked on.

there is a large grey area here and things are by far not as black & 
white as your are painting them - like just defining what constitutes 
"community email not working" is not easy - he have a few dozends checks 
on that already and you can assume that we are aware of issues usually 
faster than most other people.

For the reporting/contacting stuff it seems you actually want to start 
advocating a tracker/ticketing solution for the project which is an 
interesting idea (note that the sysadmin team already has simple 
tracker/ticket solution internally).

As for providing status updates and stuff like that - this is probably 
much more than we can do(we don't have unlimited resources ...) - this 
is still a community project( for 99% of the issues (because those are 
either fixed very quickly or have no or no noticable effect on the 
infrastructure).
For planned maintenance and reboots/updates of major infrastructure 
components we are actually trying to inform in advance (but we could 
certainly improve in that area)

> structured system would help me.

Some people would say a more structured approach to patch/bug tracking 
would help them (but maybe not help you) ;-)
Getting you sent the alerts too is simple to do - but the question is 
more of what value that information would be for you ?

Stefan

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:01:12 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:31:16 +0100

> Would be nice to have them added without adding another account in

Apparently I have more work to do than anyone else :P. I have zero
desire to have people contacting me from gmail, yahoo or other such
thing. I am busy enough.

The purpose of the jabber server was to allow contributors direct
access to each other. If we open it up, that has the potential for even
more communication overload.

If we really want a public jabber server we can do that but I would
like it to be separate from the internal jabber.postgresql server. We
could then setup the public jabber server so that it can communicate
with the private jabber server.

This would allow people who want to stay off the public im channels to
stay off but still be able to communicate with those that wish to have
a public jabber.postgresql.org account.

Joshua D. Drake
-- 
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ 
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director |  PostgreSQL political pundit

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:04:39 -0400 (EDT)

> more of what value that information would be for you ?

When email was down this past week, I had no idea if the problem was
known and who was working on it.  I envisioned something like the
emergency broadcast system in the USA that sends out an alerts and
allows communication to continue while community email is down.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:09:27 -0400 (EDT)

[ Discussion about making infrastructure downtime more visible to people.]

> would help them (but maybe not help you) ;-)

[ Email moved to hackers.]

This is an interesting observation that deserves to be discussed
separately, and relates to the patch queue.  Many people want to know
what is happening with the patch queue but having better reporting
doesn't seem to help much the people who are actually processing the
queue, and requires more work.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:20:14 -0300

> queue, and requires more work.

I'm not sure I follow.  I tried last week to give some hours for patch
review.  What actually happened was that I had to wade through a ton of
stuff, skipping patches that were already applied, threads that were
purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of
some patches.

I did manage to find actual patches, but I had then to resort to my own
mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.

Now I can't be sure whether the current commitfest is finished or there
are still patches pending review; what patches could use input from me;
what patches I could bounce to the next commitfest.

Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest.  I would
gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
next commitfest.  Would that be helpful?

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:23:19 -0300

> a public jabber.postgresql.org account.

I'm not sure I follow this argument.  If people don't want to be
contacted by outer people, just don't add them as contacts.

---

From: "Joshua D. Drake" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:36:21 -0700

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:23:19 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> 
> > This would allow people who want to stay off the public im channels
> > to stay off but still be able to communicate with those that wish
> > to have a public jabber.postgresql.org account.
> 

Well I could be wrong on this but my understanding is that not adding
them to contacts does not prevent them from trying to be contacted.

One of the major reasons people are fleeing yahoo messenger (and why I
dropped it years ago) is the amount of people sending me things like:

SBF18 36/24/36

I am entirely too old to be futzing with that. Not to mention I
am married and it was likely some man sending the message in the
first place. Instant messaging is a collaborative work tool for me. I
don't want to be contacted with:

Hey... your that postgresql dude aren't you?
Hey... can I ask you a quick autovacuum question, you work with Alvaro
right?
Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

---

From: Devrim GÜNDÜZ <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:17:15 -0700

Hi,

> Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Yes I do. :-P
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ , RHCE
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:24:28 -0400 (EDT)

> Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Funny, I had this exact problem with Yahoo and found the answer last
week.  In Pidgin under Tools/Privacy, if I choose Yahoo, I can select
"Allow only the users on my buddy list" and that should take care of
troll IM's.  Jabber also has that option.  I assume all IM tools have
that option.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:34:54 -0300

> dropped it years ago) is the amount of people sending me things like:

Hmm, I have no idea what these numbers mean (I can guess), but I think I
only got annoyed once via IM and then I learned to set the privacy
setting.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:41:44 -0400 (EDT)

> purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of

Yep, that describes the painful process well.

I have tried to stay on top of patches already applied but I am doing a
clock sweep over the queue and you probably caught a spot I was nearing.

The rest is clearly hard to digest.  Ideally I could group all related
patches together, and separate the pure TODO items from the patches that
might be TODO items or might be applied.  (Though I do need comments on
the pure TODO items too.)

The problem is that I know of no easy way to do that and the time to
doing it is better spent actually processing/deleting items.

> mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.

You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.

> next commitfest.  Would that be helpful?

Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:32 -0400

> Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

There are two or three items that we have decided to hold over, although
maybe it is sufficient if they are entered as TODOs.

Also, we *have* received several patches since the start of commit fest.
Somebody needs to check through them and see which are revisions of
patches already in the queue (legit material for this fest) and which
are new stuff (not so much).

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:18:01 -0300

> You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.

Ah, yeah, that's what I did.

> Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

We certainly have, for example

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-03/msg00245.php

Simon has been submitting patches as well.

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:20:27 -0300

Just got back online ... since its so rare (as often as JD and I agree), just 
want to make a slight amendment to my original ...

I think Bruce's idea has merit, just don't htink having it go through a 
personal desktop is the answer ... will bring it up on the sysadmins mailing 
list though ...

> that.  The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

- -- 
Marc G. Fournier        Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . [email-masked]                              MSN . [email-masked]
Yahoo . yscrappy               Skype: hub.org        ICQ . 7615664

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:30:44 -0300

> and I expect that it will be resolved within 2 weeks. Does that sound

That is the timeline I proposed, yes ...

- --

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:31:42 -0300

> besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

Let me know what I need to connect with ...

- --

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:37:17 -0400 (EDT)

> personal desktop is the answer ... will bring it up on the sysadmins mailing 

I would rather see it hosted somewhere else but I don't like to ask
someone to set something up if I can set it up myself.  If someone else
sets it up, that is even better.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:37:56 -0400 (EDT)

> are new stuff (not so much).

New stuff, as far as I can tell, but I will recheck.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:38:39 -0400 (EDT)

> Simon has been submitting patches as well.

I mean we haven't added any for the next one, but I could move them to
patches_hold, I guess.

---

From: Andrew Dunstan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:39:25 -0400

> next commitfest.  Would that be helpful?

Yes. My experience is similar to yours. I'm not prepared to spend hours 
perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared 
for this.

cheers

andrew

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:49:46 -0300

> the case at the time when things generally seem to go wrong), we page

Plus, in my case, if there is a problem, chances are its affecting my personal 
email too :)  Paging, in my case, should always be first method of contact .. 
MSN/Yahoo second (will get signed up with the jabber.postgresql.org as soon as 
someone tells me how) ...

- --

---

From: Gregory Stark <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:52:39 +0000

> clock sweep over the queue and you probably caught a spot I was nearing.

I've also tried to find stuff I could review and failed repeatedly. I have a
week now where I could spend a lot of time on this so I'll try again. 

Am i looking at the right list though? The one I'm looking at still starts
with a patch to which Tom commented "This is superseded by a later submission"
which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

>> next commitfest.  Would that be helpful?

I tried this once already. I dumped the first page of Bruce's queue into a
wiki page and laid it out in a column. But I wanted to add links back to the
messages in the archive and ran into a problem with that. It also would have
been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.

If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.

-- 
  Gregory Stark
  EnterpriseDB          http://www.enterprisedb.com
  Ask me about EnterpriseDB's RemoteDBA services!

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:53:42 -0300

Marc, apparently the signature separators on Majordomo are now broken.
I am seeing a single dash and no space:

> 
> -
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list ([email-masked])
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:04:26 -0300

Fixed ... and I think I know why (raw vs formatted config in same file) ... 
when I modified the delivery_rules, it regenerated the 'formatted version' of 
the config file, which is what I modified last time ... just fixed the 'raw' 
formatting also, so we should be good through other mods to delivery_rules ...

- --

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:15:04 -0400

> which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

Yeah, there is still a boatload of stuff that could be removed from the
patch queue.  I think that Bruce is intentionally leaving in all traffic
related to an open patch, which is okay by me as long as the obsolete
versions are properly commented.  But I wish he'd get on with removing
the stuff that is marked as already committed (some in 8.3!).

> It also would have

That's been a pain in the rear since the start.  Bruce, could we combine
it into one page now that it's relatively short?

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:29:38 -0400 (EDT)

> which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

Yes, those emails are kept for background material for the later patch.

> been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.

Yep, sorry.

> I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.

Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives.  Off
list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:30:52 -0400 (EDT)

> the stuff that is marked as already committed (some in 8.3!).

I am doing a clock sweep through the list, and it takes a week for each
cycle.

> it into one page now that it's relatively short?

Sure. Done.

---

From: Gregory Stark <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:12:12 +0000

> list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

Well I was going to let this commit-fest go forward and then try to get what I
would want from you when a) the list is down to a manageable size and b) isn't
actively being used.

What I wanted was a page that included all comments, the message-id of each
message, the author of each message, and included everything on one page.

The other half of this was modifying the archives so that we had a URL we
could pass a message-id to. I think we all agreed that would be a wonderful
thing to have regardless of how we tackle this list anyways.

Magnus or Dave? Is there anything I can help with to get the URL to
message-ids going?

-- 
  Gregory Stark
  EnterpriseDB          http://www.enterprisedb.com
  Ask me about EnterpriseDB's 24x7 Postgres support!

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:21:04 -0400 (EDT)

> message, the author of each message, and included everything on one page.

You can get the message-ids by grep'ing the mbox file, and the comments
are all:

	http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-*

e.g.

	http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/[email-masked]

So, once you grep the message ids, you can just pull the comments using
the above URL with your current message-id.  Is there anything else?

> thing to have regardless of how we tackle this list anyways.

Agreed.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:23:36 -0300

> list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

Hmm, there's the permalink stuff I mentioned via Jabber.  I think you
could do this right away, and not wait until the next commitfest.

The other thing Greg is saying is to remove paginated output.  You can
set mhonarc to put all messages in a single page.  I'm not sure this is
such a hot idea for all users, because such a page would be humongous;
but perhaps runnning mhonarc twice is a good idea?

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:25:31 -0400 (EDT)

> but perhaps runnning mhonarc twice is a good idea?

Done already --- we can always revert it.

---

From: Gregory Stark <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 01:19:25 +0000

> 	http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/[email-masked]

Huh, fascinating. it's actually an RSS feed.

I can fool around with this. I should be able to snarf in the mbox and format
a wiki page with the comments from js-kit and links to the message-id.

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:37:08 -0400 (EDT)

> a wiki page with the comments from js-kit and links to the message-id.

Alvaro reminded me that '@' can be used in a URL, just not in the host
name part, so I have converted over to using messsge-ids for permanent
URLs, e.g.:

	http://momjian.us/mhonarc/patches/[email-masked]

I will keep the MD5 URLs too as well until this commit fest is over.

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:38:11 -0700

Dave,

> [email-masked]

Heh, I don't even remember setting this up.  Better test it; I don't know 
who's subscribed anymore.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:57:35 -0400

> perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared 

Surely that there is an emerging consensus to that effect means that it's
not as unfortunate as it might be?  I seem to recall the original
announcement suggesting this was an experiment.  I wouldn't expect the first
couple rounds to go without a hitch; as long as there is procedural
improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?

A

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:50:34 -0400

> improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?

Yeah, we expected to have glitches.  I think we now have a much better
idea what sort of status-tracking support we need for future fests.

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Andrew Dunstan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:47:59 -0400

> idea what sort of status-tracking support we need for future fests.

Yes. I'm not meaning to whine, sorry if it comes over like that. It 
looks to me like we need a sort of prep phase for a commit-fest, so the 
people switching into commit-fest mode when it starts can do so with 
little friction.

cheers

andrew

---

From: Bruce Momjian <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 12:52:01 -0400 (EDT)

> people switching into commit-fest mode when it starts can do so with 

Yea, I think we are still learning, and polishing our tools.

---

From: Magnus Hagander <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:39:33 +0100

> with the private jabber server.

If people want the public chat, why don't they just use gtalk or
whatever public service they prefer?

I don't see a reason for us to run one private and one public server. In
fact, I don't see a reason for us to run a public one at all - if we
were running that, we could just as well run nothing.

AFAIK every reasonable IM client people would use today can easily add
two jabber accounts (or more), so I don't see the problem, really.

//Magnus

---

From: Andrew Sullivan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:44:49 -0400

> I don't see a reason for us to run one private and one public server. In

I agree with that.  The problem is that the protocol is actually designed so
that you don't need these infernal private servers.

> two jabber accounts (or more), so I don't see the problem, really.

Part of the point of the Jabber protocol is to avoid having to track which
account you have to use to talk to which people.  Having all these private
servers is taking us back to the days of GEnie, CompuServe, and other such
closed networks: you had to know which gateway (or series of gateways, in
the case of UUCP mail) to use in order to reach your party.  Computers are
better at routing than humans.

A