Subject: Cleaning up the Download options

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 16:13:40 +0100

I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are
out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:

Primary downloads:

- postgresql.org packages are up to date.
- EDB installers are up to date.
- BigSQL installers are up to date.
- postgres.app is up to date.
- Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all
as far as I can tell.
- MacPorts is up to date.
- The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks
gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The
packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.

Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew
distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained
on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.

Secondary (third party) downloads:

- LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should
be removed.

- 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying
11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.

- TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I
eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they
ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.

- BitNami images are up to date.

Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments
somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following
my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).

-- 
Dave Page
Blog: http://pgsnake.blogspot.com
Twitter: @pgsnake

EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 09 May 2019 07:28:54 +1000

On 2019-05-09 01:13, Dave Page wrote:
<snip>
> my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).

Should some kind of pointer to the Docker PostgreSQL images also be 
there?

   https://hub.docker.com/_/postgres

 From a quick glance, they seem to be kept reasonably up to date. :)

+ Justin

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 08:40:31 +0200

On 2019-05-08 17:13, Dave Page wrote:
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many
> clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now.
> The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.

PostgreSQL 11 looks up to date:
https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/blob/master/Formula/postgresql.rb

-- 
Peter Eisentraut              http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

---

From: Umair Shahid <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 11:49:59 +0500

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:

> - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently
> carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
>

I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres Installer
from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one reason
2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic to
Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads
section?

---

From: Daniel Gustafsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:09:19 +0200

> On 8 May 2019, at 17:13, Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:

> - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry 11 at all as far as I can tell.

The EDB installers for Linux are also on 9.4 through 10 it seems.

cheers ./daniel

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 12:55:19 +0100

> The EDB installers for Linux are also on 9.4 through 10 it seems.

Yes, as the page notes, they are discontinued after 10 and users are recommended to use native packages. The older versions are fully up to date though, and released on the community schedule.

---

From: Daniel Gustafsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:59:06 +0200

> On 9 May 2019, at 13:55, Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

Yeah, I just now managed to parse what you actually wrote; that Fink is behind
a version on 10.x, not that they are behind by not having a 11 package.  I’ll
go have another coffee now.

cheers ./daniel

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 08:53:24 +0100

> On 9 May 2019, at 07:40, Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 

Hmm, it wasn’t showing up on their package site, but it certainly does seem to be there.

Thanks!

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 08:56:29 +0100

> On 8 May 2019, at 22:28, Justin Clift <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> Should some kind of pointer to the Docker PostgreSQL images also be there?
> 

Good suggestion, thanks.

---

From: Oleg Bartunov <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 17:32:20 +0300

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 6:14 PM Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
>
> Primary downloads:
>
> - The Homebrew link seems to go to a download site which after many clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The packages appear to be a release behind on all supported branches.
>
> Thoughts on whether we should make any changes to the Fink and Brew distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.
>
> - LiveCD - this hasn't been updated since 9.6 in December 2016. It should be removed.
>
> - 2UDA - This hasn't been updated since May 2018, and is currently carrying 11beta1, 10.4, 9.6.9 and 9.5.13. I think this should be removed.
>
> - TurnKey - Deploying this requires signing up to their service. I eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.
>
> Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).

We submitted download page for windows packages
https://postgrespro.com/windows

-- 
Postgres Professional: http://www.postgrespro.com
The Russian Postgres Company

---

From: "Jonathan S. Katz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 11:56:03 -0400

Hi,

> out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:

Thanks for going through these!

As for what I've said publicly for many years, my general feeling is
"less is more" when it comes to installers and ensuring the process of
getting PostgreSQL installed is easy for our users: we want to be able
to offer packages that support the installation mechanisms for each
environment, as long as they are maintained. For the purposes of this
exercise, I'll get off of my soapbox at that statement :)

With that said:

> Primary downloads:
> 
> - postgresql.org <http://postgresql.org> packages are up to date.
> distributions? We used to require that the primary downloads be
> maintained on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.

Based on downthread comments, it sounds like we leave Brew and get rid
of Fink, though see note below.

> eventually tracked down the manifest file for their images and found
> they ship 9.4.6. This should be removed.

If these are not being maintained, they should be removed.

However, before we do any removals, perhaps we reach out to all of the
package maintainers to give them a chance to say "Yes we're no longer
supporting it?"

> Comments etc? I'm out from EOD until Tuesday, but will review any
> comments somewhen after then, and make changes as appropriate (including
> following my own suggestions if noone disagrees with them :-p ).

+1 to Justin's comment downthread on referencing the container packages
from DockerHub, though for the time being I'd treat it as "3rd Party
Dist." as we don't actually validate those packages in any way nor are
they on community infrastructure.

This gets into a larger topic that I may (read: will) broach at PGCon
(and what I feel this is leading to) is to create a design for the
Downloads page that respects & uses the hierarchy you've developed but
gives it a bit more modern feel. I've had some thoughts for how to carry
this out and looking forward to discussing more.

Thanks,

Jonathan

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:45:12 +0100

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 3:33 PM Oleg Bartunov <[email-masked]>
wrote:

> clicks gives me the Windows installer from EDB(!). I've fixed that now. The

Yes, but adding them is way outside the scope of what I'm proposing here.
There are issues that would require discussion (on a different thread), e.g.

- Your packages include patches to PostgreSQL that are not in the community
repo.
- Your packages include changes to LGPL licenced third party components
that may put unexpected and onerous requirements on end users or users that
embed in other products.
- What happens if a user gets confused and tries to upgrade an existing
installation from the BigSQL or EDB installers with one of yours (or the
other way round)? Will it break their system?
- You're packaging a version of pgAdmin that hasn't been supported in years
and will likely fail in numerous ways with modern PostgreSQL versions. As
the person most likely to get bug reports about that (which will be
ignored), I certainly don't want us to be distributing pgAdmin 3 with
modern builds of PostgreSQL.

There may be more things, but those are issues I spotted in a few minutes
on the Github repo, that I think would need discussion before we could
consider adding more installers (and right now, I know a number of people
think we should be doing the opposite, and simplifying the choices given to
users).

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:53:36 +0100

Hi

> package maintainers to give them a chance to say "Yes we're no longer

I'm inclined not to do that. My reasoning is that if we have to prod them
to update builds once, we'll almost certainly have to do it again and will
have to keep checking up on them. It's not like there aren't various ways
people could keep up to date with our releases - and two of those third
party packages are maintained by *very* active PG people.

Fink is the one I might suggest giving some leeway to. Those packages are
less than six months out of date, and the maintainer isn't (unlike the one
for Brew and MacPorts) on the -packagers list - which I thought we
considered a requirement for the "primary downloads".

> Dist." as we don't actually validate those packages in any way nor are

Right. They're also not on the -packagers list.

> this out and looking forward to discussing more.

Bring mockups!

---

From: Umair Shahid <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:30:26 +0500

> Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads

I didn't hear back anything on this suggestion. I can get the redirect
added quite quickly if there are no objections.

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 12:34:43 +0100

> added quite quickly if there are no objections.

No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm still
working through my backlog.

The PostgreSQL installers and 2UDA are different things and should be
treated on their own merits in my opinion. We should not have links for one
thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.

---

From: Umair Shahid <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:46:39 +0500

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:34 PM Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>>> I've just reviewed all the download options on the website. A number
>>>> are out of date or have other issues, so I think we need to have a cleanup:
>>>>
>>>> Primary downloads:
>>>>
> No, because as I mentioned in my original email, I went on leave. I'm
> still working through my backlog.
>

I understand. I didn't mean my comment to be directed at you.

> thing that point to something that is obviously quite different.

I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text to
better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.

Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will be
making updated packages available before the end of next week.

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 22:27:51 +1000

<snip>
> Right. They're also not on the -packagers list.

Oh, good point.  I'll look up some of the people responsible for the PG
images on DockerHub and point them at the -packagers list.

No idea if it'll work, but shouldn't hurt to try. :)

+ Justin

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 22:54:46 +1000

> Right. They're also not on the -packagers list.

Not seeing a mention of any packagers related mailing list on
the main PG website:

   https://www.postgresql.org/list/

... nor on our mailing list search page:

   https://www.postgresql.org/search/

There are a few lists for specific packing types though:

   * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-debian/
   * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-yum/
   * https://www.postgresql.org/list/pgsql-pkg-docker/  <-- here

So, they're already on there though the docker list is
inactive and hasn't seen email traffic in nearly 3 years.

The two main people for the DockerHub PG repo (to this day) are
Tianon Gravi and Joe Ferguson, who were present on the now
inactive mailing list.

Hmmm, thoughts?

+ Justin

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 13:59:33 +0100

> Tianon Gravi and Joe Ferguson, who were present on the now

You won't find references to it as it's a private, invitation-only list due
to the sensitive nature of some of the content.

---

From: "Jonathan S. Katz" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 09:27:12 -0400

Hi Dave,

On 5/14/19 6:53 AM, Dave Page wrote:
> Hi
> 
> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 4:56 PM Jonathan S. Katz <[email-masked]
> <mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:
> 
> I'm inclined not to do that. My reasoning is that if we have to prod
> them to update builds once, we'll almost certainly have to do it again
> and will have to keep checking up on them. It's not like there aren't
> various ways people could keep up to date with our releases - and two of
> those third party packages are maintained by *very* active PG people.

That's fair. I would suggest, if the contact info is still valid, we at
least contact the maintainers to let them know we are removing their
packages as a courtesy.

> 
> Fink is the one I might suggest giving some leeway to. Those packages
> are less than six months out of date, and the maintainer isn't (unlike
> the one for Brew and MacPorts) on the -packagers list - which I thought
> we considered a requirement for the "primary downloads".

WFM.

>     this out and looking forward to discussing more.

...probably more like sketches on a piece of paper :)

Jonathan

---

From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:25:29 +0200

> on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but homebrew keeps in step with
upstream very quickly, often before some of the others listed above.

Best,
David.
-- 
David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:23:46 +0100

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:25 PM David Fetter <[email-masked]> wrote:

> clicks
> maintained

Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:54:47 -0400

> on our schedule, so by rights they should be removed.

A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with the packager for Fink.  Please
don't remove them yet.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera                https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:55:43 +0100

> A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with the packager for Fink.  Please

I won't - I have also emailed him.

---

From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 05:44:43 +0200

> Not according to https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/postgresql#default

What I see there:         11.3, 10.6, 9.6.13, 9.5.15, 9.4.21
The most recent releases: 11.3, 10.8, 9.6.13, 9.5.17, 9.4.22

Is this really drastically out of step, given that a new install, by
default, would be 11.3?

Best,
David.

Remember to vote!

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 08:59:28 +0100

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 4:44 AM David Fetter <[email-masked]> wrote:

> are

I never said it was drastically out of step. However, those distributions
listed on the "primary" section are expected to be fully up to date, not
months out of date as is the case with some of those branches.

---

From: David Fetter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 16:15:44 +0200

> months out of date as is the case with some of those branches.

For people using MacOS, homebrew can be a real time saver, broadly
speaking. I'll commit to keeping the minor versions patched, and while
I can't guarantee that those patches will be applied immediately, I
can say I have yet to wait more than three days for that to happen.

Best,
David.

Remember to vote!

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 16:00:29 +0100

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:15 PM David Fetter <[email-masked]> wrote:

> > > > > > - Fink is a release behind on 9.4 through 10, and doesn't carry
> 11
> > > at all
> > > > > > as far as I can tell.

Great, thanks.

---

From: Umair Shahid <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 22:25:33 +0500

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 4:46 PM Umair Shahid <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>>> I know there is an effort in the works to accommodate Postgres
>>>> Installer from 2ndQuadrant in the Downloads section somewhere. That is one
>>>> reason 2UDA hasn't been updated. Perhaps we can redirect the 2UDA traffic
>>>> to Postgres Installer till we figure out how to restructure the Downloads
>>>> section?
>>>>
>>>
> Separate FYI, 2ndQuadrant had restarted efforts on 2UDA anyways and will
> be making updated packages available before the end of next week.
>

FYI, updated 2UDA packages are now available on the said link.

---

From: Dave Page <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:03:26 +0100

> FYI, updated 2UDA packages are now available on the said link.

Thanks Umair. I assume the intention is to keep them up to date moving
forwards?

---

From: Umair Shahid <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 22:47:12 +0500

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 1:03 PM Dave Page <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>> I think that makes sense. Perhaps we should consider changing the text
>>> to better suit Postgres Installer rather than 2UDA here.
>>>

That's correct.

I do, however, want to continue exploring the possibility of listing
Postgres Installer.